Noahide Laws, Faith, Torah, and Gentile Christians

The thing about following Torah – the Gentiles according to Christian scriptures – are given the basics of moral law and that’s about it. If anything the summations from Jesus in Matthew would make good starting (or ending) points concerning what Gentiles need to follow concerning Torah.

Matt 7:12 “In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.” (likely based on Hillel)

Matt 22:37-40 “And He said to him, ” ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ This is the great and foremost commandment..” (Even these 2 commandments capture the heart of Judaism in its rituals – like tefillin.)

The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets

I am not sure there is much more outside these book ends for a Gentile convert to consider with Torah – it seems like Jesus, Paul, the Jerusalem Council all seemed to avow such things. The basics from Torah are moral – not ritual. Gentiles are not Jewish so no need for them to go down that road.

Even to this day the Judaic faith would give Gentiles some place for being ‘moral’ and following such things.

“Series of laws, derived from Gen. 9:4-7, which in rabbinic Judaism are binding on all human beings. They prohibit IDOLATRY, BLASPHEMY, MURDER, ADULTERY, robbery, and the eating of flesh cut from a living animal. They also require the creation of courts of justice. According to tradition, gentiles can enter into the afterlife if they observe these commandments” (Noahide laws – My Jewish Learning website)

“A ger toshav, or settler convert, also called a ger ha-sha’ar (or proselyte of the gate, as in Exodus 20:10), was a resident alien given permission to live in land controlled by Jews if he or she did not worship other gods or engage in idolatry of any kind or blaspheme God…The ger toshav did not have to perform work on the Sabbath, but was not required to join in worship or perform specifically Jewish religious commandments. Maimonides called them righteous gentiles. They were clearly not full converts to Judaism.” (Lawrence Epstein – “The Theory and Practice of Welcoming Converts to Judaism”)

Maybe we see something like this happening in the early Gentile communities these people like Peter, Paul, James, and John end up dealing with. So I am not sure we are really all that ‘off’ even in Jewish books. Far as I can tell, I would be considered a ‘righteous gentile’ for the life I lead – which falls in line with the Noahide Laws. I would make the distinction – perhaps to their unliking – I share in faith also – which Abraham had and was considered ‘righteous’ (even prior to circumcision).

But that’s my take – I am okay with the teachings on Torah we have in the NT – our scriptures are based on Judaism – but are not Judaism – but do keep the spirit and intent from the Law (which is not a Gentiles law).

***Written to some Messianics concerning the following of Torah

63 thoughts on “Noahide Laws, Faith, Torah, and Gentile Christians

  1. I mean, maybe this is good enough for me – if I get considered a righteous gentile – as an outsider of the Jewish faith but admiration for it and also follow teachings (from NT) based on moral ideas from Torah (which helped me gain more respect for the Torah and Judaism).

    Fact is, I am a Gentile – I am a First Nations person with my own culture to follow and support – being Jewish is really not an option for me. I like my culture and I don’t want to leave it to be considered having ‘faith in God’. I think the Messianics truly do not understand this about some people – since culture is good – God created it in my personal opinion.

    This is a concept – unbelievably – that is now entering the Christian sphere (about time if you ask me). There are people that I believe follow the intent of the teachings of Jesus and are avowed atheists or even belong to another religion (ex: Gandhi). What do we thinkof such people – do we diminish their acheivement or uplift them? To me, I accept them and will uplift them. They may not be Christian per se – by conversion or what have you – but they follow the intents of this faith.

    I think it is a good idea for faiths to have such openings for others who are like them – just not them.

  2. The Torah has existed since the beginning and was given to all mankind then. Or else:

    How is it that according to Yalkut (a Jewish piece of literature) that Adam could compose Psalm 19 which describes the Torah?

    How is it that Abel knew how to offer a “better sacrifice” than Cain? How did he know how to offer up the first of his flocks, and Cain the (first) fruit of his field (but he didn’t)?

    How is it that God could tell him to “do what is right”?

    How is that Cain knew he was not to have something against his brother at the altar?

    How is that God could charge Cain with murder?

    How is it that “Enoch walked with God?”

    How is that “wickedness” could be defined when it “increased” in Noah’s day?

    How is it that Noah could be declared “righteous” before the flood?

    How is it that Noah knew what were clean and unclean animals?

    How is it that Noah knew to sacrifice only clean animals?

    How is it that Noah knew to offer a sacrifice on undressed stones?

    Without the Torah, none of this can be explained. So then, the Torah has always existed, and all mankind is responsible for it, as it is written:

    Deut 29:14-15
    I am making this covenant, with its curse, not only with you who are standing here with us today in the presence of the LORD our God BUT ALSO WITH THOSE WHO ARE NOT HERE TODAY. (emphasis mine)

    and

    Hosea 6:7
    Like Adam, they (nation of Israel) have broken THE COVENANT—they were unfaithful to me there. (emphasis mine)

  3. So I gather you don’t ascribe to this Noahide laws idea?

    “The Torah has existed since the beginning and was given to all mankind then” (Israel)

    It is fine to take this idea by faith – but there is no proof to actually back this claim. Nowhere in any of the Genesis accounts do we find Torah until we meet Moses at Mt.Sinai starting in Exodus – this is where we the account of Torah being given to the nation of Israel.

    This is to say, Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph did not have the Torah or else Exodus’ account is lying about Moses recieving the Torah then. There is no mention about Adam having any Torah nor Abraham and Lot. Moses is the one God speaks to in this regards.

    As for how could Adam, Cain, Enoch, and Noah all know Torah prior to it’s existence is a very easy one to answer…the person who penned the words for Genesis reads back into older accounts of peoples and stories (Adam being a mythical person). This makes it seem like Torah always exists – however the fatal flaw in that logic is Torah isn’t given until Sinai and the Exodus – so someone is wrong on this one – and I am not sure I would go against Moses being the one to recieve those pieces of work.

    As for this case – what about Abraham then?

    Genesis 17:2 “I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly.” (That is to say – a covenant that does not exist yet – see also verse 7)

    Genesis 17:10 “This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised” (Abraham is the first to be circumcised at the age of 99 – how is there talk of a covenant prior ot this? Unless God made a few covenants or this is looking forward to the one to come from Moses)

    Genesis 15:5-6 “And He took him outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them ” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be. Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.” (My point here is concerning Paul – who makes the statement Abraham was reckoned righteous to God because of his faith – this is prior to circumcision – Romans 4:9-10. No covenant existed here either – but Abraham’s faith was still reckoned as admirable to God)

    It seems to me the covenant – the full Torah – is not known until Moses and that wilderness crew. To say it existed prior is to make the accounts read more than they have admitted to.

  4. Good work Jason, we always have to bring it back to what Torah says and for you, what your sacred texts say. Chapter and verse, please. Messianics love to quote aggadic works of ‘Jewish literature’ even though Aggadah is just storytelling and not meant to be taken literally. A work is not given credence merely by the fact that it can be called ‘Jewish literature’. I write Jewish literature as do many of my friends. Perhaps we should be quoted as well? One of my acquaintances is even a professor of Jewish literature who writes Jewish lesbian stories that are really quite, shall we say, ‘out of the closet’. I’m sure I could pull some really good quotes from her works since she also includes religion in her writings. Perhaps then you, too, could build your own religion around ‘Jewish literature’ and use that as your claim to legitimacy. You could write letters and get your own followers…..

    Anyway, thought you might like this if you haven’t listened to it already: Rabbi Tovia Singer debating a Jews for Jesus guy. Always he pulls it back to what the Bible says.

  5. Eternal life was given in Gen 1:28 when God blessed Adam and Eve, and commanded them to be fruitful (have the fruit of the Spirit), multiply (make disciples), fill the earth (immerse them in the fullness of who Messiah is), and subdue it (teach them to obey all that HaShem commands).

    The first covenant was made in Gen 2:15-17. It was “keep the law or die.” It was broken. HaShem didn’t lie, and they lost eternal life when they broke the law.

    After it was broken, God made a new covenant with Adam and Eve in Gen 3:15 and ratified in Gen 3:21 with the death of the animal that clothed them. It is this new covenant that is made with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, etc, even down to David – it is all about the Promised Seed for the Promised Seed (the Messiah) is the Covenant.

  6. “Series of laws, derived from Gen. 9:4-7, which in rabbinic Judaism are binding on all human beings.”

    My comment is more philosophical in nature, than anything. But I am wondering when do the Noahide laws become binding on me? When I learn of them, or are they always binding on me whether I know it or not?

  7. “Eternal life was given in Gen 1:28 when God blessed Adam and Eve, and commanded them to be fruitful (have the fruit of the Spirit), multiply (make disciples), fill the earth (immerse them in the fullness of who Messiah is), and subdue it (teach them to obey all that HaShem commands).” (Israel)

    To be honest that’s a fairly interpretive filled packed idea you have going there. Here is the actual scripture:

    Genesis 1:28 “God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

    (a) Eternal life is not mentioned in the passage whatsoever – it can be impled Adam and Eve would of had eternal had they not ‘sinned’ – but that’s not in this passage at all.

    (b) God blesses Adam and Eve – with what? Rulership of the earth – to take care of this planet and enjoy it – nothing more.

    (c) Be fruitful has nothing to do with the implied idea fruit of the Spirit – but more with the idea concerning taking care of this planet. Now that may include ideas of moarality and taking care of one another – but it seems in this passage it’s tied to taking care of creation and being responsible for it.

    (d) Multiply does not mean make disciples – this is added to the passage and is not pulled from within context. ‘Multiply’ seems to be tied with ‘fill the earth’ – it seems possible this is reference to all of humanity to populate the earth to take care of it.

    (e) Fill the earth has nothing to with immersing people in messianic ideas – but is tied to populating the earth (multiplying).

    (f) Subdue it to mean ‘teach them to obey all that God commands’ – are you kidding me? Tying the idea of ‘subduing the earth’ to ‘teaching all of humanity’ can turn into ugly religious extremism and this from a passage that has nothing to do with teaching people. It is simple here – the next part sets it up ‘rule over it’ – the idea being ‘take care of the planet – including animals’.

    This is about being a responsible human being with what God has created you to enjoy. There is no secret what is being said here. Prior to this God created the earth – plants – animals – and then humans. God puts this all on ‘earth’ and the human having its interaction with that – nothing more. Adding more into the interpretation is nice – but the basics of that passage has nothing to do with Messiah or disciples.

    Genesis 2:15 – 17 “Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

    In this we see God promising Adam he will die if he eats from some imaginery tree (no such tree exists – fact) about good and evil – and Adam breaks this covenant. God does not lie – Adam does die – as predicted (just later on). For some reason, Israel wants it to be a literal ‘day’ (at that time) – yet we know the tree in that verse is not literal – so why does interpretation of the ‘day’ have to be that exact same day he eats the apple? Maybe life as it is lived is one long day?

    “God made a new covenant with Adam and Eve in Gen 3:15 and ratified in Gen 3:21″ (Israel)

    This is a fun interpretation I admit – but the passage itself says nothing concerning this idea. Genesis 3:15 – far from being a covenant – is a curse – put upon an imaginery serpent representing ‘evil’. This is what you call a covenant – a curse?

    As for Genesis 3:21 being a ratification here is what it exactly says “The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them”. God clothed humans with skin – this is ratification? Since when and where?

    You literally have to read so much into either passage from Genesis to make these interpretive assumptions that you are making. Everything you claim happens in these passages is basically an imaginative read in. It’s fun to play those interpretive games but honestly – in context those passages hold little interpretive weight.

    “it is all about the Promised Seed for the Promised Seed (the Messiah) is the Covenant.” (Israel)

    This is one of the things that has come from the idea within this passage – I agree. I wouldn’t doubt this is even about Messiah – but as for lineage – is Adam a proven ancestor of Abraham? Of David? We do not even know if Adam, Enoch, or Noah were even Jewish – which again is not possible – since it isn’t until Jacob that this even occurs (many years later). As far as we know, if Adam is literal, he fathers many nations – not just the lineage Jacob comes from.

  8. thejust1,
    I don’t buy into the whole Noachide thing. Orthodox Judaism pushes this, but not the rest of us. I don’t think Judaism has the right to tell other religious people what rules they are to live by, it’s none of our business just as how we live is none of theirs.

    Those nations that you are about to dispossess do indeed resort to soothsayers and augurs; to you, however, Adonai your God has not assigned the like. (Deut 18:14)

    You saw no shape, only a voice, don’t make an image in the form of a man or a woman, beast, birds, creeping things, fish, sun, moon, stars, heavenly host….These Adonai your God allotted to other peoples everywhere under heaven, but you Adonai took and brought out of Egypt, that iron blast furnace, to be God’s very own people, as is now the case. (Deut 4:15-16,19)

    And a post I wrote last year on Micah:

    Sometimes I am startled by things I come across in my reading. Yesterday was one of those times. I’ve been reading a book by Rabbi Elliot Dorff and came across a statement of his that in the last days people will learn from Torah about the God of Jacob but they will still worship their own gods. His statement was based on Micah 4:1-5. Now I have said many times that I think there are multiple paths to God, that other people can have a different way of connecting which is perfectly valid for them, but I’d never looked at this passage before to validate my way of thinking.

    It is an interesting passage. There is talk about people coming to learn from the God of Jacob and then walking in God’s paths; There is talk about God judging among the people and that there will be no more war. And then there is a verse that doesn’t seem to fit: “Though all the peoples walk each in the name of its gods, we will walk in the name of Adonai our God, forever and ever.” The passage then continues on with more talk about those days to come. Everyone learns about our God, everyone will learn how to walk in God’s paths but then they return to walking in the name of their own gods? Or do they walk in God’s path but in the name of their own gods?

    Certainly this verse seems to be saying that we will not all be on any one path to God. Everyone may learn about the God of Jacob and perhaps come to respect and admire what it means to walk in God’s paths, and even desire to do so. In the end, however, there are still many paths and many gods. And that doesn’t seem to be a problem since God is over it all.

    ****************
    That said, a good friend of mine is a Noachide. She finds great value in walking this path and has enjoyed being a part of this loosely defined community. She left Christianity but has no desire to convert to Judaism so this is the place she feels most at home.

    Some say the Noachide laws are spoken of in Acts as rules for gentile converts to Christianity. I don’t know if this is a valid assessment or not since I don’t read the NT.

  9. “Some say the Noachide laws are spoken of in Acts as rules for gentile converts to Christianity. I don’t know if this is a valid assessment or not since I don’t read the NT.” (Yael)

    I am not sure it is a valid assessment either – but I would have to say the Noahide laws do not detract from Christianity one iota (the teachings line up quite well). Of course there is way more teachings in the NT – but the Noahide laws are obeyed by Christians pretty much across the board.

    What I also will say is that the majority of teachings within the NT – which is written to Gentiles converts (gospels and letters) – seem to reflect the spirit of the Noahide laws. As I have been pointing out to Israel one here – the disciples seem to want the gentiles to follow Torah teachings – discussing only the stuff dealing with morality and not so much with ritual (ie: circumcision or feasts). The key thing is – this faith is concerned with morality – and since the founders were Jewish they build off of Torah – just with no inclusion of rites and rituals to gentiles (except baptism and communion). This is like the Noahide laws in intent and spirit I think.

  10. To be honest that’s a fairly interpretive filled packed idea you have going there. (societyvs)

    Hardly. Do a word search on the word for fruitful, multiply, fill, subdue. Limit your search to the Torah. Tell me after you do so, what you find, and then tell me it’s “interpretive.” The Torah explains itself very beautifully. I don’t have to add anything. Granted, no verse loses its peshat, yet neither is the Torah meant to be limited to just the peshat (literal understanding) for there are multiple understandings that can be derived from the Torah.

    Also I have noticed that you do not view the creation narrative as literal, which appears to be a bigger root issue you have with doctrines derived from it in general. What in the Torah causes you to doubt the creation narrative as a literal?

  11. “Hardly. Do a word search on the word for fruitful, multiply, fill, subdue. Limit your search to the Torah. Tell me after you do so, what you find, and then tell me it’s “interpretive.”” (Israel)

    It’s still a matter of context in my opinion – irregardless of the search. I guess that’s a way to do ‘interpretation’ but it does change the meanings of the singular passages in their root context and chapters. I guess that’s my problem with reading so much into Genesis from outside of Genesis’ chapters in question. However you do make a good point concering the terms and a word study.

    Genesis 1:22 “God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.”

    Compared to

    Genesis 1:28 “God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

    Genesis 8:17 “Bring out with you every living thing of all flesh that is with you, birds and animals and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, that they may breed abundantly on the earth, and be fruitful and multiply on the earth”

    Genesis 9:7 “As for you, be fruitful and multiply; Populate the earth abundantly and multiply in it.”

    Genesis 28:3 “”May God Almighty bless you and make you fruitful and multiply you, that you may become a company of peoples.”

    Genesis 48:4 “and He said to me, ‘Behold, I will make you fruitful and numerous, and I will make you a company of peoples, and will give this land to your descendants after you for an everlasting possession.’”

    Exodus 1:7 “But the sons of Israel were fruitful and increased greatly, and multiplied, and became exceedingly mighty, so that the land was filled with them.”

    The term fruitful seems to be about ‘succeeding’ tied with the idea of ‘population’. It is hard for me to back away from an interpretation of Genesis 1:28 when Genesis 1:22 says the same thing about the fish of the sea and the birds of the air.

    “Fill’ also appears in a few of those verses – and seems to be tied to the same concept concerning filling the earth and succeeding. It seemed to be a responsibility of the people to be reproductive (if they could) and take care of the earth.

    ‘Subdue’ appears a handful of times throughout the Torah (ie: Numbers 32) usually in relation to the conquering of the land in Canaan (3 of the 4 times). However – is this the same idea we find in Genesis 1:28? It’s not really a ‘war’ that Adam and Eve are going to be fighting there – so how do take subdue in the context of creation? Conquer creation? I have my doubts.

    “What in the Torah causes you to doubt the creation narrative as a literal?” (Israel)

    A whole host of things have me doubting many pieces of the creation story. I will name a small obvious list:

    (a) Two trees that do not exist – tree of life and tree of knowledge of good and evil (Gen 2:9)

    (b) Serpent who talks and is tricky (seems very mythic to me)

    (c) Adam’s name means ‘man’ and Eve’s name means ‘living/life’ – those names could be used symolically for anyone man or woman to insert themselves into the story.

    (d) This ‘garden of Eden’ – is given some level of direction – no one has found it to this day. It makes more sense to me this is a creation story of the Israelites concerning the land they live in (Gen 2:10-14).

    (e) Adam and Eve have kids – how then do more kids come about after this first batch? At some point Adam and Eve die…do their kids start re-producing with one another? Or do they re-preoduce with their parents while still alive? All of that is anethema in the Torah.

    The story reads as something that is useful for direction, even as a teaching device concerning the human responsibility and this planet – and the reason why life is lived like it is today (ie: choice, sin, working the land, birth, responsibility for the planet, etc). The story does not read as a literal one in my opinion.

  12. The term fruitful seems to be about ‘succeeding’ tied with the idea of ‘population’. (societyvs)

    Close. To understand terms, we look for their first use in the Torah. The term fruitful is always in relationship to Seed. As in, “fruit that has seed in it” and that it “shall be food for you.” From Gen 3:15 we learn that there are two seed – the serpent’s, and the woman’s. Thus in relationship to identification, fruit shows who we identify from: either the seed of the serpent – the Satan, or the seed of the woman – the Messiah. That we are to eat fruit with seed in it, and that is our food, shows us that we can only survive (live) on the fruit which shows Messiah, which by definition is our obedience to him, which by application is obedience to the Torah.

    We know this concept of obedience being implied in the Torah with its use of “fruit” is consistent because we know that the animals themselves are subject to the Torah. Mixing of species is not allowed for example, and an animal that kills a human being shall die as another example. Scripture attests also that they are tasked with glorifying God. They demonstrate the Messiah by showing submission to man either willingly or by force.

    “Fill’ also appears in a few of those verses – and seems to be tied to the same concept concerning filling the earth and succeeding. It seemed to be a responsibility of the people to be reproductive (if they could) and take care of the earth. (society)

    What is there to take care of if God himself cultivated the garden? What weeds would crop up in the garden that God cultivates? Instead we learn from the Torah that Adam and Eve were put in the garden to serve and guard “it” – what is the “it”? The Torah. We find that Eve takes this “guarding” of God’s commandments literally when she apparently “adds” to what God commanded by saying “neither shall you touch it.” Which is not an addition at all, but a fence which she is commanded to make around the Torah.

    On the contrary we learn from the Torah that “fill the earth” relates to the next time that Hebrew word “malay” shows up. The Torah waits to use that word all the way until Gen 23:9 when Abraham insists on paying the “full” price for the field in which to bury his dead (again the Torah points us to the Messiah in this because he paid the full price so that we who are buried with him are counted as the seed of the woman, the mother of all the “living”). This usage of the word “malaw” in the Torah shows us that the Torah intends for us to understand “fill” in relationship to the death of the Messiah who pays the full price for us. In short, we are to fill the earth up with the knowledge of who Messiah is. It is related to succession in that the Messiah is the seed of the woman, who (with our benefit of hindsight) comes through the generations from Eve to Yeshua, born of a woman where man is not involved.

    ‘Subdue’ appears a handful of times throughout the Torah (ie: Numbers 32) usually in relation to the conquering of the land in Canaan (3 of the 4 times). However – is this the same idea we find in Genesis 1:28? It’s not really a ‘war’ that Adam and Eve are going to be fighting there – so how do take subdue in the context of creation? Conquer creation? I have my doubts. (societyvs)

    Since you are probably more familiar with Revelation than the Torah, you do understand that King Messiah returns to take over the world and judge it, right? So then we are commanded to teach the world to obey Messiah. As you pointed out just now, and I hope you can see, that the Torah clearly explains the word “subdue” in this way.

    A whole host of things have me doubting many pieces of the creation story. I will name a small obvious list:
    (a) Two trees that do not exist – tree of life and tree of knowledge of good and evil (Gen 2:9) (societyvs)

    The Torah is called the Etz Chaim – the Trees of Life. Personally I haven’t thought in detail what the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and the Tree of Life are – but for now I can share that I believe it’s the result of Torah disobedience, or obedience. Remember, both of these were fruit trees, and both therefore would have had “seed.” And since we know the seed of fruit can relate to either the seed of the serpent, or the woman, we can then understand that the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is the experiential “knowledge” (as a man “knows” his wife) of transgressing the Torah, the result of which is death. Likewise then the Tree of Life is the experiential “knowledge” (as a man “knows” his wife) of perfect obedience to the Torah, the result of which is life.

    Had man in his state of imperfect righteousness actually eaten of the fruit of the Tree of Life (which would mean he obtained eternal life on his own imperfect merit) after having sinned, he would have been a sinner forever separated from God, without hope of redemption – and according to the Torah that gave him life, would then condemn him to eternal death. But this is my reasoning for now, according to what the Torah teaches about this on the matter, and it’s not as solid as I’d like to hope for, but I think it might give you an idea. No verse looses its literal contextual meaning, so in order for Adam to have sinned, there would have to have been a real literal Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil – for just the act of eating from that designated tree, they would be gaining the experience of evil.

    (b) Serpent who talks and is tricky (seems very mythic to me)(societyvs)

    What we call mythic is sometimes grounded in some seed (pardon the pun) of truth. The Chinese, for example, have a glyph for the Adversary, and it’s the picture of a snake with wings and legs. If God can make Cherubim that look like beasts, so too then we know from scripture that the Satan is a Cherubim that was a snake that was condemned to craw on its belly and eat the dust of the earth (the seed of fallen man, which is death). (I guess you could imagine a long lizard that loses its feet)

    (c) Adam’s name means ‘man’ and Eve’s name means ‘living/life’ – those names could be used symolically for anyone man or woman to insert themselves into the story.(societyvs)

    Actually Adam’s name means “red earth.” Eve means “living/life.” And yes, we either have eternal life, or we are the “dust of the earth” that is condemned to death.

    (d) This ‘garden of Eden’ – is given some level of direction – no one has found it to this day. It makes more sense to me this is a creation story of the Israelites concerning the land they live in (Gen 2:10-14). (societyvs)

    The Torah is clear as to where it is: the Land. Which is Israel. Specifically the narrative places the Tree of Life on Mount Moriah, temple mount, right where the holy of holies was, in what is now Jerusalem, Israel – since man was to “meet with God” during the mincha moed (prayer time) but failed to show up. There are two underground rivers in Israel. The garden was destroyed in the Flood. Extra biblical narratives place the Garden as the land of Israel as well, and explain that when Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden, they fled east across the Kidron valley, and Adam erected an altar on top of the Mount of Olives, which according to tradition is the place where Abraham offered up Isaac (who was 33 years old at the time), and also the same place where Messianic tradition says the Messiah was also offered up – on a Tree (some surmise it was the staff of Aaron which budded, and kept growing after King David left it on Mt. Moriah while fleeing Absalom, and that it had grown into a tree large enough for people to offer sacrifices to the bronze serpent that moses put on the staff which was destroyed by King Hezekiah, and the staff was identified in Jewish tradition as a (fruitless but buddable) branch from the Tree of Life and had grown into a huge enough tree in Messiah’s day according to Messianic traditoin, that Rome could hang from its branches the beams of three crucified convicts, a staff/branch/tree which some identify was an Almond Tree, and some narratives in Jewish tradition say the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was a fig tree, and to this day is not found anywhere).

    (e) Adam and Eve have kids – how then do more kids come about after this first batch? At some point Adam and Eve die…do their kids start re-producing with one another? Or do they re-preoduce with their parents while still alive? All of that is anethema in the Torah. (societyvs)

    The Torah is clear:

    Genesis 5:4
    After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. (this is also the first mention of daughters)

    We know that the Torah says “choose life” so in a circumstance where the world would cease to exist without siblings having children together, it is more Torahful to have children with a sibling than it is to choose not to, and thus effectively choose death for the entirety of humanity. From Jewish tradition we learn Cain was born with a twin sister, and so was Abel – which Seth (who had no twin sister) married (fulfilling the commandment to raise up a name for his brother).

    Anyways I hope these responses give you ideas for further research.

  13. “To understand terms, we look for their first use in the Torah” (Israel)

    I did that with ‘fruiful’ and you have all but ignored it to be honest.

    “Thus in relationship to identification, fruit shows who we identify from: either the seed of the serpent – the Satan, or the seed of the woman – the Messiah” (Israel)

    Not really. All the passages I list from Genesis (1:22, 1:28, 8:17, 9:7, 28:3, and 48:4) have nothing to do with such a concept. Fruitful in all 6 examples is always used like ‘be fruitful and multiply’ – which ties the two terms together – as in they co-exist one with one another.

    If someone tells their son, as a blessing on his marriage, to ‘be fruitful and multiply’ what is being said there? It’s plainly obvious – may you enjoy your life and be blessed with children. Why is that so hard to see in those 6 examples – I request everyone read them and you tell me – am I off my rocker?

    To take the term ‘fruitful’ and make it about ‘fruit of the spirit’ or about ‘choosing seeds’ from some weird blend of picking fruit off of imaginery trees to comparison’s with the seed of the snake and the woman is beyond strange. Fruitful and fruit (as in what is read in Genesis 3:15) are 2 different words altogether – and contextually are used differently.

    Fruit in Genesis 3:15 means exactly that – a fruit (ie: an apple or an orange). It is true fruits do have seeds – but your extrapolation concerning the comparison of seeds from fruit (never mentioned in the passage) with that of the woman’s/snakes is playing games with the passage. You are making the passage say more than it really says – through a version of interpretation not grounded in context.

    “What is there to take care of if God himself cultivated the garden? What weeds would crop up in the garden that God cultivates? Instead we learn from the Torah that Adam and Eve were put in the garden to serve and guard “it” – what is the “it”?” (Israel)

    Genesis 2:15 “Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it.”

    Actually, God put Adam in the garden to cultivate and care for it. God was not taking care of this garden – he gave it to Adam to take care of – to keep. Nothing really more to say on that except you were mistaken on your interpretation.

    “In short, we are to fill the earth up with the knowledge of who Messiah is.” (Israel)

    Man is this ever strange interpretation. You take ‘fill’ and make it mean pretty much anything you want it to be – based on really nothing from within the context – but based on theological ideas you already know. If I were to read Genesis 1:22, 1:28, 23:9, and Exodus 1:7 (all contain ‘fill’ in them) – would I automatically land on the ideas you propose concerning Messiah and that knowledge filling the earth? Hell no.

    Everytime I read fill in those passages it’s a basic definition concering ‘fill the earth’ or ‘filled’ or ‘full’ – which is clearly about the topic at hand – in a few cases ‘filling the earth’ or ‘paying full price for something’. Nothing in a single one of those passages so much as hints as Messiah and his ‘fulfillment’. I am sorry – your interpretative scheme is quite aloof from context.

    “As you pointed out just now, and I hope you can see, that the Torah clearly explains the word “subdue” in this way.” (Israel)

    Well that’s too bad you think that way – I find the idea a dangerous one and can lead to militarism – which is oddly enough seen in Numbers 31. Once someone thinks they have to ‘subdue’ something in the sense of ‘conquer’ – we will run into religious extremism everytime. If Messianism is right then it has to ‘subdue’ the other forms of Judaism – correct? It has to ‘subdue’ the other forms of Christianity – correct? Until there is only one standing that is ‘correct’.

    If Messiah comes and conquers – he will conquer the evil-doers of this planet – not people because they are innocent of actual crimes. If God comes and judges people because they were gentiles and refused to follow Jewish custom and ritual – that will be a very strange day. I almost think you think God is Jewish?

    “No verse loses its literal contextual meaning, so in order for Adam to have sinned, there would have to have been a real literal Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil – for just the act of eating from that designated tree, they would be gaining the experience of evil.” (Israel)

    Tree of life and tree of knowledge of good and evil do not exist and have never existed – sorry no one has found those traces. Tree of life is symbolism for the story and same with a tree of knowledge of good and evil. It is the point where people can make the choice whether to obey God or disobey God – committ a moral action leading to ‘life’ or committ an action that leads to ‘sin’ – knowledge of good’s counterpart – evil.

    Jesus uses this symbolism.

    Matthew 7:16-20 “You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits”

    Jesus uses an example of tree’s here also – like the gardens tree’s – again with names that we know are not literal tree’s – like a good and bad tree (which produce good and bad fruit accordingly). The sumbolism is a total throwback to those tree’s in the garden and relate to same point being made there – you produce the actions of the tree you are concerned with (ie: good and bad). Choice is key.

    “Actually Adam’s name means “red earth.” Eve means “living/life.” And yes, we either have eternal life, or we are the “dust of the earth” that is condemned to death.” (Israel)

    I got some news for you – you also will die (and become the dust of the earth). Adam’s name is the most basic name one could give a character – that would be identifiable to all who read and could place themsemves in the story (similar to a parable). Eve is called the ‘mother of the living’ – which would be the woman character in the story. So we have a man and a woman and God and choices to make – uhm – can anyone say that is religion in a nutshell. It has nothing to do with eternal life – or else Eve should be called ‘eternal life’.

    “The Torah is clear as to where it is: the Land. Which is Israel” (Israel)

    I knew you were going to say this – so the garden of eden is the land of Israel? Well I’ll be damned – Adam/Eve in a garden being directed by God to care for the land – and breaking that covenant and having to be removed – are we sure this story is not written during the exile to Babylon (or about it)?

    It’s so plainly a story (like a parable) and not some literal event. The characters are apparently the Israelites (I prefer the whole human race) and their choices concerning Israel (I perfer the whole earth) – and whether they will obey God (Torah for Israelites; NT for Gentiles; or just the teachings within Genesis). When you read Genesis – you are reading a story about the human struggle and the human ability to choose both good and evil – and what sin can do.

    Israel can be the garden of eden – a perfect place for all people to live and serve their God – but is it? The story makes points like this for us to ponder in our heads.

    “it is more Torahful to have children with a sibling than it is to choose not to, and thus effectively choose death for the entirety of humanity” (Israel)

    Leviticus 20:17 “If there is a man who takes his sister, his father’s daughter or his mother’s daughter, so that he sees her nakedness and she sees his nakedness, it is a disgrace; and they shall be cut off in the sight of the sons of their people. He has uncovered his sister’s nakedness; he bears his guilt.”

    So you are confirming on the record here – it is okay to break mitzvot? This is your teaching – and I do believe you are the one that interprets the idea of teaching people to break these any of these mitzvot (Torah) is the lowest in heaven? So, are you offering a teaching that breaks Leviticus 20:17? I think you are.

    I think Adam and Eve is a story – as if the world is founded on incest – from them or from Noah and his clan. If these stories hold any weight – they are isolated stories for and by the Israelite culture. Cultures existed outside this Adam and Eve – outside of Noah’s localized flood – or how would they re-populate the earth…suggesting incest is just gross.

  14. Okay, this all beautiful and dandy and you’ve been having a nice argument but it’s kinda gotten away from the crux of the issue for which you started bickering about: Noahide!

    Now I’ll state very plainly that I think Noahide is a bunchy of hewy. But that’s because I think that the world would be an awesome place if everyone kept Torah. I mean, wouldn’t it be awesome if the whole world kept Sukkot like Zechariah predicted? Or prayed daily towards Jerusalem as Solomon suggests in his dedication? Or if they all came and submitted themselves to circumcision to share in our joy at Pesach? Or if they also voluntarily brought the first of their fruit to Jerusalem? Or if they came and made offerings of peace and repentance for each of their sins?

    Okay, maybe I’m wrong… I could be. I have before… But lets say that the world did keep Torah – Let’s just imagine for a moment that by some miracle that every Moslem, Hindu, Buddhist, Christian and Atheist decided to honor HaShem Tzvaot in every way. Lets pretend that His Blessed Name really was exalted in all world through word and deed by every living human. Lets say that they followed Kosher, Niddah, Shomer Neggiah, the Korbanot and all of the many other prescriptions of Torah… Are you Noahide people really of the opinion that you would want to STOP these people from keeping more Torah than you think they have to? Why do you preach so brashly against them keeping Torah? What does it hurt?

    Where shall we start to correct them from their errant ways? Maybe they shouldn’t cover their feces so there will be no uncleanness in the camp – after all, we’re not their people and that command was clearly given only to the Jews, right? Or maybe they shouldn’t “enter His courts with thanksgiving”? After all they aren’t really the “sheep of His pasture”… Or maybe you’d rather they didn’t pray for the peace of Jerusalem – because after all Jews are not their people – What should they care? Or maybe we shouldn’t allow the circumcised Gentiles to eat of the Pesach lamb (assuming the Temple is rebuilt as promised) even though Torah clearly states we are to include them…

    Maybe you’re right and the Torah doesn’t apply to them… Maybe you’re right that there is not one law for everyone… But if so I’d sure like to know what HaShem meant when He said: “Assemble the people, the men and the women and the little ones, and your foreigner who is within your gates, that they may hear,and that they may learn, and fear the HaShem your God, and observe to do all the words of this Torah…”

    No. The whole history of Noahide is wrought with stupidity and self-righteous idiots who were afraid to share the blessings of chesed with the Gentiles. Like Jonah, we are afraid that HaShem might listen to their prayers and turn away His wrath. We would much rather see them demolished than see them blessed. Noahide laws are the beginning of blessing but from there the foreigner has the privilege to offer on the same alter in Jerusalem. Their lips can also compensate for the bulls. They can also circumcise and participate in Pesach. They can likewise come up to Sukkot and experience blessing… In fact they are commanded to do so!

    When something dies of itself we can’t eat but we can give it to them. We can sell it to the foreigner. But just because we give it to them doesn’t mean they are commanded to eat! They can choose to do more and be blessed can’t they? They don’t have to choose death. Just as HaShem sets life and death before us in the Torah even a wise Gentile can also choose life. The ger doesn’t have to defile his body with swine flesh. He can separate his meat and milk and abstain from work on Shabbat…

    In fact, the only people this causes problems for are those rebellious Jews who employ a Sabbath Goy!!! Have you never read: “I will provoke them to jealousy with those who are not a people. I will provoke them to jealously with a foolish nation.” Ooops!!! The Goy are more interested in keeping Shabbat than we are!!! Boy, that looks really bad!!! Butter teach them not to keep Shabbat… Yeah, that makes us look much better…

    Really when it comes down to it the only possible things that can be argued by Torah whether it wasn’t also given to the Gentiles are Kosher Laws… Niddah and laws of purity are required by anyone approaching the Temple and we are told that they are allowed to make teshuvah with an offering on the alter just like us. They must follow the same laws in giving the best of their flock of kosher animals when they offer to HaShem – they can’t offer a pig on our alter! Shabbat was made for Adam first and then given to Moshe and Israel. Yet the blessing of being fed with the heritage of Jacob also extends to them when they turn their foot away from Shabbat. And I’ve already mentioned how Gentiles are included in Pesach and how they are commanded to make the pilgrimage of Sukkot. Shall we deny them the moedim after HaShem has invited them?

    This is why I say with confidence: Noahide is a bunch of hewy created by ignorant men who have forgotten the basics of Torah. I say this with the utmost respect for these men even in their error. I would say that we are all ignorant in one way or another. But a wise son will understand both his father’s wisdom and his father’s folly. We have a choice to either learn from their mistakes or repeat them. I choose not to deify the patriarchs and sages but rather humanize them. They are flawed men who tried their level best. I seek to imitate them but to also learn from their mistakes and to live more righteously. I want my son to do the same when he looks at his father. May he be a better man than I!!!

    Modern Judaism has an idea that the stories of old are about how great our fathers were. If we let everyone share in that we might loose our identity as their privileged children. In reality, everything in Scripture is about how great HaShem is in His faithfulness to us. If we share that with the world it only makes us that much more special. If the whole world kept Torah we would still be set apart as the People of Promise. Rather than discouraging anyone from keeping Torah we should rejoice that they have chosen life in some small way. We should go so far as even explaining how to make tefillin if they beg us enough. Our tzitzit are for them to tug and say, “We will go with you, for we have heard G-d is with you.” Shall we then turn them away?

    Let them keep Torah!!! Then they will be blessed and bring us blessing. If we put a stumbling block before the blind will we not be punished? If they keep Torah better than we do maybe we’ll even learn something. If they fail to keep Torah because they don’t know properly – will HaShem not be merciful to them as He is to us and instruct them also towards righteousness? Shall we delight at their lack of Torah or rejoice when they voluntarily seek to honor HaShem. Let them keep Torah. Let them keep Torah better than us. Maybe then some of us will take the hint and stop creating halachah to avoid the weight of Torah and start loving or neighbors for a change…

    Ugh! We need a Torah revolution in this world. If the Jews won’t start keeping Torah properly we should at least rejoice that someone is… But even that is too much for our thick headed kippah! We would rather tear them down than show them up. We have surely become a people like Issiah said: “They honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me.” Before we start trying to tell them to do less Torah let’s listen to them for a change when they tell us we should do more Torah!

    …And that’s all I’ve got to say about that!
    Shalom Uv’racha,
    …Rods ;-)

    • Rods…thank you.
      I mean it. Really, thank you.
      I am a gentile.
      Born a gentile.
      Love Torah.
      I put up a mezuzah. We keep every festival. We keep kosher. We wear tzitzit and tallit.
      To Jewish to be a gentile.
      To gentile to be Jewish.
      For the longest time my consolation has been the verse in Genesis where G-d tells Abraham, ‘I am Adonai, walk before me and be perfect’.
      The Rabbi’s of old taught that when G-d reveals himself to a person, His Goodness is sufficient. That we do not need man’s approval or vote. That just like every great patriarch and prophet, those G-d calls out for Himself are often made to walk a lonely road (Think of Daniel, Shadrach, Meeshach and Abed-Nego, the whole kingdom bowed, his own people bowed under fear of death, but Daniel stood. Must have been a truly lonely feeling).
      Being an observant Gentile, to some minor capacity (in the sense of not having a crowd to roll with), I can actually say I understand some of these men of old.
      That said, it’s a privilege. This is why I’m passing this onto my two boys.
      In spite of this though, every now and then, I do wish there was someone out there who understood me (Preferably someone of the original stock…someone Jewish), or at the very least, encourage me not to lose resolve.
      Like the patriarchs, I craved some sort of blessing.
      And even though you did’t put it into so many words, I have to admit your post almost brought a tear to my eye.
      Bless you sir.
      Thank you.
      You have made my day.

      Shalom,

      Steve

      • Steve, I’d say join a synagogue and get involved in their teachings and traditions – you’d probs enjoy that a lot (and a community to support your passion for faith).

  15. “To understand terms, we look for their first use in the Torah” (Israel)

    I did that with ‘fruiful’ and you have all but ignored it to be honest. (societyvs)

    Um, Gen 1:11 is the first use. “fruit with seed in it.”

    Fruit in Genesis 3:15 means exactly that – a fruit (ie: an apple or an orange). It is true fruits do have seeds – but your extrapolation concerning the comparison of seeds from fruit (never mentioned in the passage) with that of the woman’s/snakes is playing games with the passage. (societyvs)

    Hardly. The Torah’s first word “B’reisheit” “in the beginning,” also “in the firstfruit” (reisheit is hebrew that means first, or firstfruit) tells us that the entire Torah is about the firstfruit – the Messiah, thus not a single item in the Torah has some connection with describing the Messiah.

    I almost think you think God is Jewish?(societyvs)

    Um, is Messiah Jewish?

    It’s so plainly a story (like a parable) and not some literal event.(societyvs)

    If the story of the Fall is only a story, like a parable, then why do you need a Messiah? Did the Torah lie when it said “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth?” If the Torah narrative isn’t true, then man really didn’t fall, there is no such thing as sin, and no need for a redeemer since death then is the normal end of all things forever since God either didn’t create anything, or created us to die. How sadly fatalistic (and sadistic). Furthermore, Messiah Yeshua would have lied when he says “just like it was in the days of Noah, so will the coming of the son of Man be” – you’d have nothing to look forward to because then there really weren’t any real “days of Noah.” Oy vey. You have deeper problems than with losing your religion. You’ve lost your sense of logical thinking.

    So you are confirming on the record here – it is okay to break mitzvot? (societyvs)

    Keeping a positive mitzvot (“choose life) always overrides a negative mitzvot (“do not lie with your sister”) in a circumstance when one must choose between the two, is commanded in the commandment to “choose life.” There is always life or death in every choice, even in the choice between two commandments if they are in conflict with one another in a particular situation. Messiah Yeshua acknowledged this: the priests “work” on Sabbath in the temple, but are held innocent. This is because they are fulfilling the greater positive mitzvah of serving HaShem in the temple, than in “not resting.” Yeshua also recognized “weightier” and “lesser” commandments in the Torah.

    Cultures existed outside this Adam and Eve – outside of Noah’s localized flood (societyvs)

    If it was a local flood, then why didn’t they just move to where the flood wasn’t coming? They had 100 years to pack up and leave. Instead God has them build a boat for 100 years, pulls a miracle of moving animals to the ark, just to have Noah survive a local flood that judges not the wickedness of everyone else in his generation, but only those in the immediate area? So then I suppose Noah wasn’t really the “only righteous man before” HaShem when HaShem sought out to flood the world – and later God changed his mind and found the rest of the world suddenly righteous, and only limits the flood to a local region. Aye. This is the obvious conclusion in accepting your paradigm that the bible is guilty until proven innocent.

  16. “Are you Noahide people really of the opinion that you would want to STOP these people from keeping more Torah than you think they have to? Why do you preach so brashly against them keeping Torah? What does it hurt?” (Rod)

    (a) I am not Noahide – I am a Gentile Christian but I have no problem with being considered under the Noahide idea.

    (b) I am against the idea that as I as a gentile Christian have to follow ritual and custom of the Jewish nation (ie: circumcision) when this is not taught by the NT.

    (c) If people want to keep the Torah then they should do so by the system that has been doing it for eons – the true Judaic faith. I do not accept, as a Christian, the Messianics as a form of Judaism – it’s a form of Christianity with a culturally Jewish slant to it.

    I do not think it hurts anyone to live by the concepts of Torah – many great communities and people do (including myself). But to pre-suppose that all Gentiles of the faith in the God (via Messiah) have to become Jewish is just a weak premise – this is my point.

    “They can also circumcise and participate in Pesach. They can likewise come up to Sukkot and experience blessing… In fact they are commanded to do so!” (Rod)

    This is exactly what I am arging against – the duty of circumcision to Gentiles to be part of the people of God. I disagree 100%. If we do not practice sukkot – big deal – most Gentiles have no clue what that even entails – it’s not from their culture. I am not saying these are bad rituals – they aren’t – but they aren’t required to be a follower of the Messiah’s teachings.

    “Before we start trying to tell them to do less Torah let’s listen to them for a change when they tell us we should do more Torah!” (Rod)

    Oh boy. I have no problem with learning from the Torah – none whatsoever – I wish that all would spend time in study of it. That being said, I am also not going to start telling Gentiles they need to follow the rituals and customs of the Jewish Nation – when nothing of the sort is commanded of them from the NT (Christian scriptures).

    If God does not like this – then there is really little I can do concerning it – the NT scriptures as a guide do not delve into this terrirtory at all concerning gentiles. Should I be upbraided for that? No. I am only heeding by what is written of Jesus, Peter, James, John, and Paul – who is to blame for what they wrote?

    I read, study, and learn from Torah – this much is very true…yet because I do not follow Jewish custom and ritual I am being dis-honored as not ‘loving God’ or ‘loving my neighbor’ and pretty much anything else thay can be levied against my personal faith commitment. I am sorry if I have to disagree with you Rod and you Israel – the proof is just not on your side in this debate. If it were – I would not debate one iota concerning this point of view.

    But if God wants everyone to be Jewish – why have Gentiles and various cultures in the first place? Isn’t the God we serve Sovereign – why would he allow for such range in cultures? Is not God also proud of them?

  17. “Um, Gen 1:11 is the first use. “fruit with seed in it.”” (Israel)

    Genesis 1:11 “Then God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them”; and it was so.”

    God created plants and tree’s to produce fruit – with seeds – so they could also ‘reproduce’ and likely be ‘plentiful’ on ‘earth’. Nothing too complicated there.

    “Hardly. The Torah’s first word “B’reisheit” “in the beginning,” also “in the firstfruit” (reisheit is hebrew that means first, or firstfruit) tells us that the entire Torah is about the firstfruit – the Messiah, thus not a single item in the Torah has some connection with describing the Messiah.” (Israel)

    This interpretive stance again – who can argue against that – you can take anything from any passage and make it mean anything? You have concluded from ‘in the beginning’ by playing with dropping a letter from ‘B’reisheit’ to make another word ‘reisheit’ (meaning first or firstfruit – I am not sure) and then tie that to messiah because messiah is the ‘firstfruit’. I can do that also with pretty much any passage also – I’ll pick one out of thin air – Proverbs 4:12.

    “When you walk, your steps will not be impeded; And if you run, you will not stumble”

    God wants us to join a type of cross training regiment – of course he does – why would He mention walk and run in the same sentence? This is clearly about our health – and how God wants us to exercise – walking and running – nothing will impede us – nothing will cause our will to break (stumble).

    I am being facetious – but no more facetious than what you are doing to passages. Nothing has a context with you Israel – anything you want a passage to say is very possible…throw a messiah in here and a messiah in there – presto – it is there. How can anyone truly debate that?

    “Um, is Messiah Jewish?” (Israel)

    Yes…I am not sure what that has to do with anything – we both admit that.

    “If the story of the Fall is only a story, like a parable, then why do you need a Messiah?” (Israel)

    That’s a funny question from someone claiming to be from a form of Judaism – they believe in a Messiah yet do not believe in ‘original sin and the fall’. I do not see the real problem there.

    “Furthermore, Messiah Yeshua would have lied when he says “just like it was in the days of Noah, so will the coming of the son of Man be” – you’d have nothing to look forward to because then there really weren’t any real “days of Noah.”” (Israel)

    I am not denying Noah – I mentioned it was likely a localized flood. Jesus’ point in that saying has to do with the conditions of the times from that story anyways – not whether Noah was a real person or not (although I think he was).

    Also, my thinking is nowhere near to fatalistic – I believe in a God and sense of direction and boundaries – I just don’t believe your version. You seem to think if I am not circumcised – I broke a commandment – so with the breaking of that I am guilty of other things like adultery, coveting, and theft – and that’s just silly. Fact is, I am not circumcised and could really care less – does this make me an adulterer? No. Your faith is way to narrow on gentiles who are not Jews and enjoy these teachings.

    So what if Adam is like a parable for us to learn from – you think the garden of eden is Israel – which the Israelites are back in. Does that look like a garden of eden to you? Maybe Messiah is needed for that (ie: world peace)? There are many things Messiah could be for – not just the idea of original sin. I believe there are at least 6 ideas within Judaism itself.

    “If it was a local flood, then why didn’t they just move to where the flood wasn’t coming? They had 100 years to pack up and leave. Instead God has them build a boat for 100 years, pulls a miracle of moving animals to the ark, just to have Noah survive a local flood that judges not the wickedness of everyone else in his generation, but only those in the immediate area? So then I suppose Noah wasn’t really the “only righteous man before” HaShem when HaShem sought out to flood the world – and later God changed his mind and found the rest of the world suddenly righteous, and only limits the flood to a local region. Aye. This is the obvious conclusion in accepting your paradigm that the bible is guilty until proven innocent.” (Israel)

    You must have heard this argument before – but I will re-hash it anyways. Localized because even if Noah had 100 years to go somewhere – he was living in the ‘known world’ – where would he go? Also the people being judged – why are they only from the local region as far as we can tell – there is no way Noah would of known what was happening in North America for example? Or did they? Ever notice the bible is only concerned with that region of the world? No other regions of this world are mentioned.

    It makes sense to think this was localized in extent. Think about it – does Noah save polar bears? He likely never even saw one in his lifetime. What about penguins? Or maybe a moose? There is no proof this flood was global – nothing scientists can find anyways. Wouldn’t there be major proof of this flood in geology if it was global – on mountain ranges or in sea-beds? Nothing has surfaced – so much so – even many Jewish faithful have to take a second look at the story and cannot be sure how literal to take the wording.

    Also a little tidbit from Robert Alter concerning our talks on ‘fruitful’:

    “National existence, moreover, is emphatically imagined as a strenuous effort to renew the act of creation. The Creation story repeatedly highlights the injunction to be fruitful and multiply while the Patriarchal Tales, in the very process of frequently echoing this language of fertility from the opening chapters, make clear that procreation, far from being an automatic biological process, is fraught with dangers, is constantly under the threat of being deflected or cut off.” (Genesis: Translation and Commentary).

  18. Israel – You can’t go all derashical on the gentiles. They don’t understand anything more than the peshat and they have problems even with that. If we make it too allegorical it becomes of little application to them. They lack the discipline to understand that multiple interpretations can hold true at once. They still look at Scripture one dimensionally. They have to have one interpretation. They don’t understand how one Jew can have three opinions. So stick to the peshat and don’t try to go deep into the words since they don’t know our language or the way that Hebrew words interrelate.

    societyvs – Okay now I get you. From the links sent by friends and your writing style I thought that you must be one of the Jews who are Noahide thus I wrote to you as a Jew. If you are Gentile I will write to you as Gentile. Sorry for the insult/complement/confusion…

    You have said that you are against me and yet in your message you agreed with me that the Gentiles CAN do Torah if they want to. I do not advocate FORCING anyone to do Torah. Torah is a blessing not a burden. HaShem Himself says: “It’s not so hard for you that you should say who will swim the oceans…” Torah is something that anyone can do and find blessing in it. As I noted before Torah means instruction. Following good instruction yields a good result. BUT you don’t have to follow the instructions if you don’t want to…

    Again, I’m not advocating that anyone HAS to do anything. You could go and rape and steal and murder – after all you can… But even a child understands that there is little benefit in these things. Paul says: “Everything is permissible but not everything is beneficial…” We know that the wages of these things is death. While we may believe in Messiah and except eternal life – yet a murderer or rapist should still be removed from the earth…

    HaShem says, “I set before you life and death: choose life.” But you don’t have to choose life. Yeshua says, “I am the way the truth and the life – no man comes to the Father but by me.” But *IF* Yeshua’s life is different than the life set before them on Mount Gerizim we have a serious problem: It doesn’t make Hashem a liar it makes Yeshua a liar because Yeshua is the one that said He is the ONLY life! So We have to see that the life from Yeshua as identical to that set before them at Gerizim. But do we have to choose that life? And after all, who would want to choose life?

    As to the offerings, the festivals and the purity of Israel – the Gentile is ALLOWED to participate in these things if he so CHOOSES. He is not REQUIRED to for salvation. But salvation without blessing is kinda like only half of salvation isn’t it? Too often we focus on what we have been saved FROM instead of what we are saved TO. Yet most Christians have seen the blessing of tithing. (which comes from “OT” BTW) The blessing is there for anyone who chooses to give – do they HAVE to? No they don’t have to give and experience the blessing of tithing. Same is true for Shabbat – HaShem will feed you with the heritage of Jacob even if you are a Gentile. But again you don’t HAVE to live in that blessing. And after all, who would WANT to?

    Zechariah makes a pretty strong argument for coming up to Israel at the time of Sukkot. No rain is pretty devastating! In modern times when we don’t live in agrarian culture anymore and it’s hard to understand the serious implication of no rain. Since we import so much of our food I can understand the person who might say, “Meh, no rain! Not a big deal. I’ll just go in and turn on my AC and drink bottled water imported from somewhere else.” But we got serious problems if the whole world does that. But as it’s only long as one or two nations – it’s not that big a deal – just plays with the local economy a bit… Again, do we have to?

    But living Torah is only a bondage to those who ask: “do we have to?” The very phrase, “do we have to?” has its roots in rebellion. It comes from someone who seeks an excuse NOT to do something. A completely submitted child would never ask, “do I have to?” but rather, “what else can I do?” One is a heart of obedience and the other the heart of rebellion.

    Do we have to? No. Of course we don’t HAVE to! WE ARE NOT ROBOTS!!! We can choose to go the other way. There is NO heavenly prescription that we MUST except His blessings. I don’t understand why anyone would want to reject blessing, but I guess you have your reasons…

    Torah is a privilege. While the privilege includes obligation, we must understand that the obligation to serve a father tea is yet in all ways a privilege. (I am of course speaking in earthly terms…) If we, as children, rejoice in serving our earthly father how much more will we find joy in serving our heavenly Father? A child who never served their father will have a hard time saying that their father was loving – because they have never shared love with him. The child who serves her father spends time with him. It is the highlight of any little girls life to give things to her daddy – but does she have to? Of course not! That’s the whole point!

    If you have a viable relationship with G-d I encourage you to test this. Eat kosher meals all day and pray throughout and see whether G-d talks to you or if His peace is there all day. The next day eat pork and shellfish and everything profane and pray the same. Mark this down on a calendar alternating day on and offf for a month and then tell me that you can’t see that He blesses those eating kosher. This is the spiritual benefit besides the health benefits that are already evident from years of research. Again I ask: with this evidence who in their right mind would WANT to obey Torah?

    Do the same thing with Shabbat for ten weeks. See if He doesn’t bring peace in your life for completely resting and ceasing from all of your work which He has given under heaven. Make sure that you work hard the other six days as He commanded. Test it out!!! I know you’re a man of science with a good understanding of the principles of testing a hypothesis. PROVE ME WRONG by living your own life!!! I invite you to taste and see that HaShem is good. Blog about it! Let the word see!

    Yeshua said, “until heaven and earth pass away not the least letter or pen stroke will by any means pass from the Torah until everything has happened.” That meas that every promised blessing is still there for us to enjoy. Do we have to? No. We can CHOOSE to be too busy to profit from this obedience. You can CHOOSE to do that. And to tell you the truth I really have no problem with you if you don’t choose to obey. I think it’s sad and I feel sorry for you. But I don’t condemn you. I want to see HaShem’s mercy on you as much as the next person…

    To each person Yeshua healed He instructed: “Go sin no more.” If we understand sin as the transgression of His Torah then we see Yeshua clearly instructing each one to go and do Torah. If instead we want to define sin in a different way… Well, I’ve been trying to do some mental gymnastics to find another definition… But the one whom HaShem has found righteous we must make sure to never call dirty. Thus when He shows mercy and saves one from the sin he was in we must be ready to accept that one as a brother.

    But having been saved from sin to righteousness shall we return now not wishing to be changed? Shall I use the freedom of salvation as a license for sin? May it never be!!! It was for continual freedom that Messiah set us free to righteousness and good works. Do we have to do these things? No we don’t. But if I build again those things that were torn down I make myself transgressors. Shall we say then that Messiah was the minister of sin? No! Messiah has taken our guilt to die under the curse of the Law that we may be removed to righteousness and live in blessing of Torah. Again, I ask: who want to live in blessing?

    As I said before: Let them keep Torah! What do you care? If they want blessing let ‘em come get it! If you don’t want to live in blessing then DON’T. I wish you would for your own sake. But I wouldn’t want anyone to FORCE you into a blessing you DON’T WANT. Nobody ever HAD to keep Torah. It has been our privilege! We GET to keep Torah! It is ALLOWED to us to do these things. Therefore, let us not put any stumbling block in the way of children running to accept these blessing. Neither let us force anyone to take a blessing they don’t WANT. But to those that WALK in His blessing let us be careful never to curse them. For it says clearly, “Those who curse you I will curse…” Let us, therefore, be diligent to call everyone to HIS blessing that they come to experience the FULLNESS of Messiah. In this way we can also be blessed.

    But again: do we have to?

    Shalom Uv’racha,
    …Rods ;-)

  19. yaelbatsarah – I don’t know of any fraud going on but perhaps I’m missing something. So far everyone is expressing what they really believe. Can you explain your fraudulence?

    Shalom Uv’racha,
    …Rods ;-)

  20. In the Holy Word we see some principles that aren’t explicitly written but are there.

    first, the purpose of the instruction of God is for all mankind. God created Adan and Eva, then gave them instructions.

    God made from a ‘goy'(gentile) to a ‘goy hakadosh'(Holy gentile), how is written in Genesis. This is purpose of the jews people, to be a ‘Holy gentile’, and the purpose of Yeshua is that all the Gentiles became Holy.

    The Salvation is gained thank to the grace of God, but the Torah is to keep the Holiness.

    Then, the promise given to the Prophets is than all the ‘Goyim’ (Nations) will go to Jerusalem to celebrate the festivals. the purpose of God is that all the people regardless the race, become Holy through the Torah. Follow Yeshua, is walk the Torah.

    The importance to do Torah in this times is than we are participating in that promise, God give us an advance of the Blessing of the Messianic kingdom to come.

    In the other hand, there are some Instructions than are not for everyone, like the instruction for the Levites and kohanim , where even other jew who wasn’t a levite or kohanim couldn’t participate but also was given instructions for all the jews and gentiles.

  21. Ever notice the bible is only concerned with that region of the world? No other regions of this world are mentioned. (societyvs)

    That assumes there are other “regions” of the world. You assume the world looks pretty much the same as it did in Noah’s day, which is a big assumption vs the bible when the bible says the entire world flooded, which would be a land-scape changing globally catastrophic event. Read on before respondiong…

    It makes sense to think this was localized in extent. Think about it – does Noah save polar bears? He likely never even saw one in his lifetime. What about penguins? Or maybe a moose? (societyvs)

    The Torah is clear at least 2 of “all” land animals, and “all” birds, and “all” creeping things.”

    There is no proof this flood was global – nothing scientists can find anyways. Wouldn’t there be major proof of this flood in geology if it was global – on mountain ranges or in sea-beds?(societyvs)

    You seem to hold to irrational theory of uniformitarianism – the believe that things now are the way they have always been. This worldview is limiting you from seeing the evidence of mountain ranges, seabed mid-ocean ridges, sea-fossils on the top of even Mt. Everest, and even the ocean basins themselves as evidence for the Flood. Consider this, if the mountains were made low, and the valleys uplifted, the oceans would cover the surface of the earth to a depth of 2 miles, not counting the water included in the ice caps. The ridges under the ocean which uniformitarians have assume have only grown at a certain rate over millions of years, describe a very real “and the waters of the great deep burst forth.” The water didn’t come from above, but from below. Layering, sedimentation, fossils, all are evidence for the global Flood. In actuality, the existence of these things are just facts. How you interpret facts, however, depends on your worldview. If you believe in uniformitarianism, you will interpret the facts as having arrived in their current state over millions of years. If you believe the bible, you will interpret the facts as having arrived in their current state in just the last 4500 years. Much depends on your worldview, and the worldview you have apparently has death existing before sin – which means when Messiah covers your sin, he can’t guarantee that you won’t die (and stay dead) for some other reason.

    Nothing has surfaced – so much so – even many Jewish faithful have to take a second look at the story and cannot be sure how literal to take the wording. (societyvs)

    The Jewish “faithful” you mention certainly are not orthodox.

    God created plants and tree’s to produce fruit – with seeds – so they could also ‘reproduce’ and likely be ‘plentiful’ on ‘earth’. Nothing too complicated there. (societyvs)

    I find it odd that you take literal this passage, but not when the Torah talks about Adam and Eve. As I keep saying, over and over again, that being fruitful and multiply does refer to procreation, but that is not all there is to it when it says such, because the Torah gives us clues as to what it also refers to: being obedient to the Torah, and making students of the Torah – and from the perspective of the Torah this is more important than just having babies (for babies are not guaranteed to keep Torah and study Torah from birth, which is why the Torah teaches us to teach our children). If only you would use the same liberty you use to allegorize Adam and Eve to that of “be fruitful and multiply,” I don’t think you’d find yourself with much of an objection. After all you say, “who can argue against it?” Well you can – if the Torah contradicts whatever midrash you are deriving. There are rules after all to biblical interpretation. I can’t make a drash that God doesn’t exist, or wants us to engage in idolatry. Neither can I make a drash that says God always wants us to “walk or run” and never rest, since it says “if”. But I can say that when I do walk or run, depending on the context that verse is in, then in the realm of “walking” or “running” that whatever drash I pull out, the verse will always be true – as long as I stay within the context of the drash. In the case of “fruit” the drash I pull is supported by the clues of the Torah relating it to “seed” and thus the “seed of the woman” the Messiah – meaning that I have Torah liberty to derive from its text an understanding of the use of fruit, seed, multiply, etc, in the context of Messiah.

    This isn’t all that difficult, but as I said, you have much bigger issues than a dispute over hermeneutics. You have a paradigm/worldview that is causing you to be morally relativistic, and to question God’s Torah in a way that presumes it guilty until proven innocent. If all you can handle is working on getting rid of idolatry in your life, then glory be to God, work on that. Certainly we can agree that getting rid of blatant idolatry is more important than getting circumcised, wearing tzizit, or *gasp* eating pork. I just don’t want you to think that you’ve “arrived” and no longer need to work on getting rid of idolatry in your life. My goal is to open your eyes to what the Torah defines as true idolatry – and thus to encourage you to continue working on removing idolatry from your life.

    That is why Rods posted that you don’t “have” to keep the Torah – for eternal life, since Messiah keeps it for you as your tzaddik – but that as his disciple you are called to imitate and obey him, and that is what Messianic Judaism is about. You are led to keep Torah not because you are Jewish (as some in the Two-House MJ movement surmise) but because you have a Torah-observant Jewish Messiah living in and through you, and desires to use you to love God and love others in His way, not yours. If that is all that you get from our discussions with you, it’s that alone that I want you to understand deep in your heart.

  22. They don’t understand anything more than the peshat and they have problems even with that. If we make it too allegorical it becomes of little application to them” (Rod)

    Allegory is not the problem – adding in ideas to passages where nothing exists and avoiding the context of the passage is. If we do this – then what use is context? It is not. Then you also open the door to the idea of anyone getting anything they want based on some midrash-ic interpretation concerning stuff very unrelated (but the terms can be found in the passage).

    Messianic Jews Misuse, Misinterpret, and “Mis-Midrash” Texts” (Rabbi Jonathan Waxman). Waxman goes on to give 4 examples of many that are used in Messianic circles that Judaic circles actually disagree with on interpretation – here: http://www.uscj.org/Messianic_Jews_Not_J5480.html .

    If a known rabbi in Israel is saying these things and using basically the same logic I am in translation – I do not see the real problem with holding to the position I do concerning interpretation. Rod – you may think I don’t understand – but maybe it’s the fact I do that really bothers you.

    BUT you don’t have to follow the instructions if you don’t want to…” (Rod)

    I already said I base my life on the teachings of Jesus – and those find their home in Torah.

    But salvation without blessing is kinda like only half of salvation isn’t it? Too often we focus on what we have been saved FROM instead of what we are saved TO” (Rod)

    Here is where I have to diverge – you think I would follow a faith for some 16 years without noticing a blessing? What kind of idiot would that make me? I should forsake such faith – it is utterly useless. But this is not what happened in my life over those 16 years. I went from uneducated and poor to having a great life and owning a home (and basically getting all that I ever asked for). One could say I was extremely ‘blessed’.

    I got all that without so much as following a festival or custom of the Jewish culture – like circumcision or Passover festivals. It does not seem to me God is all that concerned with me doing such things – or else why bless in the first place? The blessing merely came as I was responsive to enacting the teachings of Jesus in my personal situations. How can I argue against a 16 year history?

    Do we have to?…We can choose to go the other way… I don’t understand why anyone would want to reject blessing, but I guess you have your reasons…” (Rod)

    So that’s it – if I don’t choose your way of doing Torah then there is no other way? In essence, we start going the other way? I told you straight-out I adhere to the intents of Torah and follow the teachings of Jesus – but for some reason you ignore this. How about reading what I write for once – I read your writings out of respect.

    If you have a viable relationship with G-d I encourage you to test this” (Rod)

    Been there, done that and am still doing that. 16 years doesn’t lie.

    I really have no problem with you if you don’t choose to obey. I think it’s sad and I feel sorry for you. But I don’t condemn you. I want to see HaShem’s mercy on you as much as the next person…” (Rod)

    I am not going to live according to Torah according to a group of people that claim to follow Torah and are yet not an accepted form of Judaism – and have denial problems concerning being a Christian denomination. Why in the world would I follow this idea? It holds no weight in Pauline epistles; Jesus never threw his weight behind it; the Jerusalem Council had problems with the idea.

    Don’t get high n mighty on me concerning obedience and blessings – when I know for a fact this movement has no basis for gentiles. I follow Torah and I am blessed – I have lived well and been given levels of responsibility I had not thought would happen. God has done nothing but bless me from the time I came to this faith. Now your group wants to turn this around – well take it up with God! Since you cannot easily defend your position from the NT.

    To each person Yeshua healed He instructed: “Go sin no more.”” (Rod)

    I agree. But no one, for the life of their faith, can so much as explain how the act of circumcision is a moral idea…what happens to you that you become more moral when you get circumcised? I propose – nothing happens. Not all of God’s commands are moral – some are symbolic.

    Therefore, let us not put any stumbling block in the way of children running to accept these blessing” (Rod)

    This is a word you cannot abide by. You are putting a stumbling block in the way of the gentiles – when you ask them to convert to Judaism, be circumcised, become kosher, attend sabbath, keep the festivals, and basically deny their own culture. That’s a huge stumbling block for any gentile that comes to faith in the Messiah. Messiah does not lay down these obligations, neither Paul, and neither the Jerusalem Council – but you do?

    You are telling Gentiles the blessing is theirs – but between them and that blessing is not faith in Christ – but Jewish conversion and ritual/customs. Instead of making these things of Torah a blessing – you have made them a wall of seperation – and a filter. Paul speaks rightly of this situation “Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you” (Galatians 5:2).

  23. Waxman goes on to give 4 examples of many that are used in Messianic circles that Judaic circles actually disagree with on interpretation – here: http://www.uscj.org/Messianic_Jews_Not_J5480.html . (societyvs)

    Strawman argument. I can burn that strawman with Waxman too. None of those verses the Messianics he’s talking about are over the Torah. The reliance on non-Torah verses to prove the Messiah is probably the worst hermeneutic approaches an MJ can stand on – almost as bad as a Christian standing only on the writings of the apostles to prove the Messiah.

  24. for example, we know that the Messiah comes through a birth where a man is not involved when the Torah very clearly says quite literally “her seed.”

  25. “The importance to do Torah in this time is than we are participating in that promise, God gave us an advance of the Blessing of the Messianic kingdom to come.” (Jorge)

    I do not disagree Jorge – but when we start adding to this principle then we develop ideas that find no basis in NT. I agree 100% with you in this sentence.

    Here’s the theological problem:

    When Jesus died – he died for all (includes gentiles). Was his death good enough to allow for the entrance of the gentiles on the basis of no pre-requisites? Or was his death limited – gentiles still need to convert to Judaism and follow that path – and be gentile converts (still foreigners in a sense)?

    I think the NT is clear – the gentiles are allowed in to this experience that the Jewish nation has been calling God for so long. There is not attachments to be put upon them concerning having faith in God – faith is the pre-requisite – like Abraham’s journey. Gentiles are added in – but are not Jewish – and Judaism is still a respected piece of that puzzle and should be. Where gentiles were included in the path of faith – Jewish people always had a close connection to God (the Torah and Prophets). Gentiles have been included in the experience – not in becoming Jewish.

  26. Gentleman, let me introduce myself. I am Eliazar Perez. I believe that Yeshua is YHVH and he humbled himself by taking the form of a man and became a slave unto death, even death on a cross. He descended into Hell, and raised himself by his own power, and returned by ascension into Heaven where he now day and night is in prayer for all men (Jew and Gentile alike) to love his name.

    I’ve skimmed through this conversation and would like to add some words. Hopefully not in vain, but as a participant to further grow our relationship with the creator of heaven and earth.

    It seems evident that the LORD commands us to have one law for everyone in the following verses:

    Lev 24:22 ‘You shall have the same law for the stranger and for one from your own country; for I [am] the LORD your God.'”

    Num 15:16 ‘One law and one custom shall be for you and for the stranger who dwells with you.'”*

    Num 15:29 ‘You shall have one law for him who sins unintentionally, [for] him who is native-born among the children of Israel and for the stranger who dwells among them.

    Here in Isaiah God is rewarding greatly any gentile who does his law:

    Isa 56:6 “Also the sons of the foreigner Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him, And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants– Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And holds fast My covenant–
    Isa 56:7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain, And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices [Will be] accepted on My altar; For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”

    Here in the following verse is a carte blanche statement by Hashem to everyone:

    Deu 27:26 ‘Cursed [is] the one who does not confirm [all] the words of this law.’ “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’

    Here in Proverbs it says that the law of the wise is a fountain of life. This is a statement to everyone (Jews and Gentiles alike).

    Pro 13:14 The law of the wise [is] a fountain of life, To turn [one] away from the snares of death.

    We know that within Hashem is the fountain of life:

    Psa 36:9 For with You [is] the fountain of life; In Your light we see light.

    And we know that it is wise to do the law of the Lord as it is written somewhere that even the nations will see us obey his Torah and they will call us righteous:

    Deu 4:7 “For what great nation [is there] that has God [so] near to it, as the LORD our God [is] to us, for whatever [reason] we may call upon Him?
    Deu 4:8 “And what great nation [is there] that has [such] statutes and righteous judgments as are in all this law which I set before you this day?

    Here in the following verse is another blanket statement on all men (Jew and Gentile alike):

    Pro 28:9 One who turns away his ear from hearing the law, Even his prayer [is] an abomination.

    So we should all want to be hearers of the law.

    Here’s some verses from the infamous (N.T.) New Testament:

    Here we see Yeshua not only advocating the longevity of the Instructions of Moses, but also the preeminance in that it will be fulfilled and the heavens and the earth are the judges based on their existence or lack thereof.

    Mat 5:18 “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

    Luk 16:17 “And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.

    But we knew this already from the Tanach:

    Isa 55:11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper [in the thing] for which I sent it.

    Here is another statement that shows a person (Jew and Gentile alike) is justified by the adherence to the law (here I quote James):

    Jam 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

    But just as James is quoted above, it is not just about works of the law, but as well faith in God that he is our salvation, as below we see:

    Gal 3:11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God [is] evident, for ["the just shall live by faith."]*

    So then I can reiterate with a quote from James:

    Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    Here I’ll give another point as to what the law and sin are:

    1Jo 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

    Therefore sin is breaking the law. But we already knew that from the law which states:

    Deu 27:26 ‘Cursed [is] the one who does not confirm [all] the words of this law.’ “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’

    For those who train themselves in study of the law we can learn:

    1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law [is] good if one uses it lawfully,

    But there are those who will not use it lawfully but only pick and choose, or simply read and ignore like James is quoted in the following:

    Jam 1:23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror;
    Jam 1:24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was.

    Yet let us all (Jew and Gentile alike) be as the following:

    Jam 1:25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues [in it,] and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

    And here James again repeats a point I’ve been belaboring to make in this text:

    Jam 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one [point,] he is guilty of all.

    Therefore since we know that none of us our righteous, no not one:

    Dan 9:11 “Yes, all Israel has transgressed Your law, and has departed so as not to obey Your voice; therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him.

    Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

    Isa 59:4 No one calls for justice, Nor does [any] plead for truth. They trust in empty words and speak lies; They conceive evil and bring forth iniquity.

    Isa 53:6a All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way;

    So is there a man that can save us? No, for all we are cursed to death for all have trespassed the law of Hashem. Yet our salvation is in this to complete the verse quoted just above:

    Isa 53:6b “And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.”

    For upon himself, Hashem laid the iniquity of us all. Our great God became flesh that he may be an applicable sacrifice through a perfect obedience of the law of Moses to atone for the sins of all men (Jew and Gentile alike). Since he saw that no man was righteous, then only he whom is righteous, whom is God could live such a life, and did so for our sakes. Amen.

    Hope you read to the bottom, and look forward to the continuation of this coversation.

    Eliazar Perez

  27. “Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives?” (Romans 7:1)

    compared to Romans 7:1

    “Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?”

    These verses are actually different – and in the NASB it says ’to those who know the law”. Insinuating – not all knew the law – which matches up with actual context.

    Romans 7:6 “But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.” (Paul issues a ‘we are dead to the law’ idea and serving in newness of ‘spirit’ – should we believe we are dead to the law?)

    Romans 13:8 “Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law” (Either way – we are fulfilling the law – the spirit of the law when we love one another – so dead or alive – the one who loves is doing the law – Paul’s summation).

    Paul does not expect anything concerning ritual and custom from these Romans – I have read through the all the chapters after this – and he does not note this as part of his teachings. Why does Paul always skip this idea – even when he has 8 more chapters after this chapter in the Romans letter – that’s plenty of time to outline the following of circumcision, feasts/festivals, and other customs (like kosher). Nothing appears. His silence says as much as his own words.

    “How can the Corinthians know what things are to be considered unclean and thus be admonished to keep “separate” from “them” who are defined as “unbelievers” in 2 Cor 6:14?” (Israel)

    The thing that is unclean is defined that’s why. They were partaking with people that were unbelievers and amongst idols…maybe persuading them to join an idol with God? Paul asks them to separate from such an idea – such people.

    “How can the Philippians be told to think about pure things, if they are not to know the Torah? (and why should they think of them if they aren’t to also do them?)” (Israel)

    Easy – see next verse “The things you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.” (Philippians 4:9) Paul gave them instruction and even practiced what he preached – they were learning from him (and his sent teachers).

    “How could the Ephesians know what is an impure person, and how to not be impure so as to avoid the negative consequence of one not having “any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God?”” (Israel)

    Easy – Paul spells it out for them in Ephesians 5:5 “No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater”. Idolatry again is the problem – and idolatry (the worship of statues or whatever) was common in the Roman era.

    “How can the Thessalonians know what it means to not be called to an impure life, the very antithesis of a holy life?” (Israel)

    A few things actually:

    1 Thessalonians 4:1-2 “that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please…For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus” (they have been instructed by Paul on this already – and they have been given ‘some’ commandments to follow. Notice Paul says ‘some’ there.)

    1 Thessalonians 4:3 “For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality” (It could be about sexual immorality Paul has taught on)

    1 Thessalonians 4:6 “and that no man transgress and defraud his brother” (And it could also be concerning ripping off your fellow faith believer).

    Either way you cut his one up – Paul has taught them ‘some’ things to follow and mentions a few in the very chapter as points of concern.

    “If Peter is writing to Pontusians, Galatians, Cappadocians, and Asians, then why does he quote a Torah commandment, and why does he quote one which can only be fulfilled if one knows the rest of the Torah’s instruction in how to carry it out?”” (Israel)

    Doesn’t holy mean ‘set apart’? Isn’t Peter asking the obvious here – these gentiles should set themselves apart in behaviour compared to the society around them. I would think so – the next few chapters Peter outlines behaviours he wants them to address and work on – including malice, deceit, lust, dealing with governing institutions, loving one another, etc. Peter seems content to lay out a wide variety of moral ideals for them to follow – but guess what – in 4 chapters not a single mention of feast/festival or customs of the Jewish nation.

    “What traditions did Paul do that he says are an imitation of what Christ does?” (Israel)

    The traditions are Paul’s teachings – like eating meat sacrificed to idols a chapter previous. He also gets into the Lord’s Supper and mentions baptism in chapter 10 – but nothing else. Another book where Paul can put to rest this whole issue and decides not to – even though he outlines problems happening in the Lord’s Supper they celebrate in a whole chapter (ch.11).

    Here is the real problem as I see it. Paul is quick to point out some problems with the Lord’s Supper and even talks about baptism in his letters – but never is another feast/festival or Jewish custom discussed and directed upon. Don’t you think if Gentiles are messing up on many other levels concerning what Paul is teaching them that if they were taught about feasts and festivals they would be doing inappropriate things in those also?

    That’s the logical outcome since every other issue is addressed in some detail – in some letter somewhere. No mention of Jewish feasts/festivals (including sukkot) or even kosher laws (which I am sure they would break). Nothing. The absence and lack of direction on any one of those issues has to mean they were not taught concerning such things – because they were not making errors in them.

  28. Insinuating – not all knew the law – which matches up with actual context. (societyvs)

    Of course. But my point is that he’s writing to Romans – and they know the Torah.

    should we believe we are dead to the law? (societyvs)

    Our sinful natures are dead to the Torah, by Messiah’s death. We live to the Torah, which Paul says is spiritual, by Messiahs life.

    See: Understanding Romans 7 http://jerusalemcouncil.org/midrash/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=495

    the one who loves is doing the law – Paul’s summation (societyvs)

    And conversely, one who does the law can’t do so if they don’t love. And additionally, one who does the law, loves. – Yeshua’s summation.

    His silence says as much as his own words. (societyvs)

    Again, another logic lesson. The argument from silence works both ways. He could either not mention what you call “ritual” (which the Torah calls love of God and others) because he doesn’t expect them to do it, or not mention what you call “ritual” because the Romans need to focus on more important things such as not sleeping with their neighbor’s wife.

    “The things you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.” (Philippians 4:9) Paul gave them instruction and even practiced what he preached – they were learning from him (and his sent teachers). (societyvs)

    And again, I see “see in me, practice these things” as referring to Paul’s self-proclaimed identity “I am a Pharisee” and particularly of a sect of Pharisees that orders the Torah into weightier and lesser commandments and focuses on the weightier (without neglecting the lesser).

    “No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater”. Idolatry again is the problem – and idolatry (the worship of statues or whatever) was common in the Roman era. (societyvs)

    The Torah defines idolatry as more than just the worship of statues. It defines any transgression of the Torah as idolatry. You can’t add to or subtract from the definition of “impure” or “unclean” from the Torah, and if you make Paul to do so, then you make Paul into a false prophet according to Deut 12:32-13:5.

    Doesn’t holy mean ‘set apart’? Isn’t Peter asking the obvious here – these gentiles should set themselves apart in behaviour compared to the society around them. (societyvs)

    Absolutely.

    I would think so – the next few chapters Peter outlines behaviours he wants them to address and work on – including malice, deceit, lust, dealing with governing institutions, loving one another, etc. (societyvs)

    Absolutely.

    Peter seems content to lay out a wide variety of moral ideals for them to follow – but guess what – in 4 chapters not a single mention of feast/festival or customs of the Jewish nation. (societyvs)

    Which is more important for a new disciple of Yeshua to focus on: tithing off his mint dill and cumming growing as weeds in his yard, or not sleeping with his neighbors wife? But regarding ” in 4 chapters not a single mention of feast/festival or customs of the Jewish nation” read on…

    “But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do”

    In all you do. Ok let’s start a list:

    praying
    worshiping
    holidays
    eating
    clothing
    talking
    fellowshipping

    etc…

    Now that Peter is quoting from the Torah to backup his charge to be holy in all we do, then surely the Torah has something to say about each of these things that we “do.” Now, do you want to learn what the Torah says about all things that you “do”, or keep doing your own thing?

    “Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind.”

    ok, now get rid of your malice toward Jews and Messianic Jews, deceit in promoting a God who breaks his Torah and tells Gentiles to do the same, hypocrisy in claiming to be of HaShem but not doing what HaShem commands, envy of those who do not keep the Torah, and slander of God by claiming he’s a liar when he says he makes a covenant “with those not here today” meaning all people including you. For starters.

    1 Peter 2
    “But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.”

    Peter refers you to Exodus 19:6 which says

    Exodus 19:6
    you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’

    And guess who he calls this group?

    “These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”

    Thus Peter is calling you part of a “nation” not “nations” – that of Israel.

    1 Peter 2:13-14
    13Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, 14or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.

    Peter tells us to submit to every authority instituted among men – this includes the Sanhedrin, the chief halachic authority of all the nation of Israel of which you are part of.

    The problem is, you are not looking for it, and just assume it’s not there. You assume the Gentiles were not to keep Torah, thus you look at the writings of the Apostles in this light and conclude that since they don’t mention it (which they do, but that’s from looking at them from a Torah paradigm, which is my paradigm), therefore Gentiles don’t have to at all for any reason whatsoever. But like your issues with worldview and Adam and Eve, your worldview concerning Gentiles is throwing your conclusions totally off. You ignore that the Torah was given to all mankind, and it is by the Torah (through Messiah’s perfect keeping of it) that we are rewarded with eternal life.

    The traditions are Paul’s teachings – like eating meat sacrificed to idols a chapter previous. He also gets into the Lord’s Supper and mentions baptism in chapter 10 – but nothing else. Another book where Paul can put to rest this whole issue and decides not to – even though he outlines problems happening in the Lord’s Supper they celebrate in a whole chapter (ch.11). (societyvs)

    Again, you are making a conclusion from a Torahless (and thus foundationless) paradigm. The “traditions” are those he, as “a Pharisee” keeps.The Passover (what you call Lord’s Supper) and mikveh (what you call baptism) are all found and defined in the Torah in all their details and implications and applications. You desire to learn more about Torah, great. Then let’s start by addressing your paradigms and assumptions first which are totally throwing you off.

    The absence and lack of direction on any one of those issues has to mean they were not taught concerning such things – because they were not making errors in them. (societyvs)

    Food, holidays, prayer, and yes even customs, are addressed by the apostles according to the Torah, and not by some imagined addition to it. If they added to or took away from the Torah, then they are false prophets. That is the whole case. They clearly teach, as does Torah, that as one who is turning to God and his Messiah, you are now part of the people of Israel and are given the responsibility of the covenant to keep in obedient love to God and others, and by which as you keep them you will eventually even go through the conversion ritual to Judaism and thus be reckoned as a Jew – not for purpose of gaining eternal life, but because you already have it (and only the House of Israel and the House of Judah receive the “new covenant” with the “Gentiles” missing from Jer 31:33).

  29. I see where was a question as to where in the NT does it mention that Gentiles are to keep Jewish ritual. I, however, will leave the argument for ritual aside, and speak only of the Instructions of Moses written within scripture. As for any custom or ritual aside from the literal words, I’ll leave for another debate. However, within our scriptures we find in the NT that we should strive to obey the commands of Hashem.

    I have heard say that the reason they are not to keep the law is because it is focused on physical actions. Here however Paul is cited as saying that the law is spiritual:

    Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

    If it is then spiritual then it is that of the Spirit, and we being led by the spirit are the following:

    Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

    Interestingly if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. How is this?

    Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

    How is it that if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law? Lets look at the following verse:

    Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

    Here Paul states again, (do we do away with the law, stop doing the law,) make void through faith (in the redeeming work of Yeshua)? CERTAINLY NOT! On the very contrary we establish the law (we make it full like Yeshua, we do it’s laws in order for it to continue, to be seen, to be followed, for if we stopped doing the law, then it would slowly fade away, and be gone, which is the opposite of establish).

    Let us look at what the Comforter, the Helper, the Holy Spirit is to do:

    Jhn 16:7 “Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
    Jhn 16:8 “And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
    Jhn 16:9 “of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
    Jhn 16:10 “of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more;
    Jhn 16:11 “of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

    We have established that sin is trespassing the law. The Holy Spirit will convict us of sin, of our trespasses against the law. The Holy Spirit will convict us of righteousness, and we know that the law is rigteousness:

    Psa 19:9b “The judgments of the LORD [are] true [and] righteous altogether.”

    Therefore the Holy Spirit will convict us of righteousness, that we may obey the instructions of the LORD.

    The Holy Spirit will convict us of judgment. For we know that we all will be judged according to every thing that we do, and based on what judgment? Lets here what Yeshua says:

    Jhn 5:45 “Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is [one] who accuses you–Moses, in whom you trust.
    Jhn 5:46 “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me.

    So it will be the words of Moses that will be an accusation against them as judgment. Therefore we would do well to listen to these words of Moses to do them, for by them will we be accused.

    Again, how is it that we who are led by the Spirit, are not under the law. It’s true we aren’t under the law as much as the Spirit of God is not under the law. For if the Spirit of God dwells within us and is convicting us of sin and righteousness and judgment, then will the Spirit of God lead us to sin? Certainly NOT! Let us look at what the Spirit of God will lead us to do which is written in Isaiah

    Isa 11:2 The Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.
    Isa 11:3 His delight [is] in the fear of the LORD, And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes, Nor decide by the hearing of His ears;

    Which is the same wording for the law of Moses in Psalm:

    Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul; The testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple;
    Psa 19:8 The statutes of the LORD [are] right, rejoicing the heart; The commandment of the LORD [is] pure, enlightening the eyes;
    Psa 19:9 The fear of the LORD [is] clean, enduring forever; The judgments of the LORD [are] true [and] righteous altogether.
    Psa 19:10 More to be desired [are they] than gold, Yea, than much fine gold; Sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
    Psa 19:11 Moreover by them Your servant is warned, [And] in keeping them [there is] great reward.

    Here we establish that the Holy Spirit will lead to obedience of Torah. For the Holy Spirit and the Law are one, for the Law became flesh:

    Jhn 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

    What is the Word except for the words of scripture? The Word is the words of God? Scripture are the Word of God. Here we see that the Word of God and the Law of God are the same thing as the Instruction of the first five books and the Law of Moses are one and the same as well. Other synonymous sayings are the Torah, or the Tree of Life.

    Here we see that the Word of God is one with God, in fact is God. We see that God became flesh, and the angel said to name him, “Salvation”, for he shall save his people:

    Mat 1:21 “And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.”

    (Unfortunately the Greek translation tries to transliterate the name of Salvation by it’s sound and not by it’s meaning. Salvation in it’s male form in Hebrew is Yeshua. Therefore the verse should have been translated to the greek male form of salvation, which the greek word for salvation sounds like soter).

    This Yeshua whom is the embodiment of the instructions of Moses, whom also is the very living Spirit as Paul states:

    1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, ["The first man Adam became a living being."]* The last Adam [became] a life-giving spirit.

    Therefore this life-giving spirit, which is the Holy Spirit abides in you. This Yeshua lives inside of you, and him who cannot sin:

    Num 23:19 “God [is] not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

    And again:

    Jam 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone [to evil].

    Hbr 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all [points] tempted as [we are, yet] without sin.

    Therefore, Yeshua will never tempt us to do evil. In fact, his very spirit will convict us when we disobey the Torah, which disobeying the Torah is sin. Not only will he convict us when we disobey the Torah, but he will convict us to obey the Torah, having faith in Yeshua and obeying the Torah is righteousness. For he will convict us of the coming judgment in which all mean will be judged according to their deeds.

    Hence:

    Rom 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.

    The following verses liken to your previous arguments of the analogous parallel of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and the Tree of Life: (Of which shall you be a slave? The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, or to the Tree of life?)

    Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin [leading] to death, or of obedience [leading] to righteousness?

    Or so also in:

    Gal 6:8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

    Here Paul is quoted that there is a righteous requirement of the law:

    Rom 8:4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

    Here Paul chastises us to awake to righteous, of which has already been argued that righteous are the judgments of the LORD written in Psalm 19 (Here Paul states that some who continue in their sin do not even know God):

    1Cr 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak [this] to your shame.

    Here we see Paul making a difference between living in the spirit, and walking in the spirit.

    Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

    And we have been made alive by the Spirit:

    1Pe 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us* to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

    Therefore if we are made alive by Christ and living in His Spirit, then we should walk in the Spirit, or as John is quoted as saying:

    1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

    Which is to say that to walk in the Spirit is to walk in the light as Yeshua was in the light. Yeshua walked a sinless life, therefore are strive is to be perfect as he is perfect:

    Mat 5:48 “Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

    Also noted in:

    Hbr 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

    As well as:

    1Jo 3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

    And pay attention to:

    Hbr 12:1 THEREFORE we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares [us,] and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

    Let us continue to recognize this difference of being led by the Spirit, yet not under the law:

    Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

    So those who have faith in Yeshua their Messiah is their redeemer from this sin, the receive the promise of His very Spirit. And we know that where the Spirit is there is freedom:

    2Cr 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord [is,] there [is] liberty.

    Therefore though the Spirit has freed me from the bondage of sin, still I have a bondage to Yeshua through His Spirit:

    Phm 1:9 [yet] for love’s sake I rather appeal [to you]–being such a one as Paul, the aged, and now also a prisoner of Jesus Christ–

    And though we are prisoner’s of Yeshua our Messiah, we are freed from our bondage to sin. We are not however prisoners of Yeshua our Messiah if we continue to sin. Again as the argument of analogies above stated, to whom will give yourself to? The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, or the Tree of Life? And we know that the Torah is the Tree of Life. We know that Yeshua is the Tree of Life. We know that Yeshua is God. We know that God is love. Therefore if the Torah and God are one, and God is love, then it is loving to mimic God and obey the Torah. For if God and the Torah are one, then the Torah is the expression of God, or one might even say a tutor leading us to understanding whom is Christ:

    Gal 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor [to bring us] to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    Gal 3:25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

    Why do we no longer need the tutor? Ah, because we have him whom the tutor spoke of. We have Yeshua’s Spirit in us, whom the Torah spoke of as coming. We have his very anointing no longer needing a teacher:

    1Jo 2:20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.

    And as well:

    1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will* abide in Him.

    So we are put to death in the flesh, but made alive by the Spirit, therefore we are a new creation:

    2Cr 5:17 Therefore, if anyone [is] in Christ, [he is] a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

    Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.

    A new creation by the Spirit of Yeshua who has given you life for righteousness:

    Rom 8:10 And if Christ [is] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin, but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

    So are we to sin although being justified by Christ? CERTAINLY NOT!

    Gal 2:17 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not!

    Here we see a freedom of needing no one to teach us nor a tutor to guide us for we have the very anointing of the Lord, which is the Holy Spirit, whom is Yeshua. Here we have Yeshua as being our teacher, needing no one to instruct us of him. So, when Paul states that the Law was as a tutor, and we no longer need a tutor. For the Law instructed us as to what is the very nature of Messiah. However, since we now have Messiah Yeshua in us, then we should no longer need the Torah. We should live the Torah without need of the words. For by the Spirit he will convict us of the very words in the Torah leading us to righteousness. We establish the Torah because we live the Torah. We obey the commands in the Torah for we know that these are words of His Spirit which are words of life:

    Deu 30:15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil,
    Deu 30:16 “in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the LORD your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess.

    And continued with:

    Deu 30:19 “I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;
    Deu 30:20 “that you may love the LORD your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He [is] your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”

    And as Peter was quoted:

    Jhn 6:68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

    And we know that the Spirit and Yeshua are one, as they are both one who give words that have life:

    Jhn 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and [they] are life.

    For we know that the Father and the Son, and the Spirit are one, for they all are one and from them comes life:

    Jhn 5:26 “For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,

    Therefore we can conclude the difference between being led by the Spirit, yet not being under the law.

    For we have been given the gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. We have the choice to accept or reject this gift. Only those who accept the gift will prove they have accepted the gift by doing works of righteousness:

    Rom 3:1 WHAT advantage then has the Jew, or what [is] the profit of circumcision?

    Paul answers much!

    Rom 3:2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God.

    Yet all Jews and Gentiles are under sin:

    Rom 3:9 What then? Are we better [than they?] Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

    For all have sinned, quoting Psalm 14:1-3, Psalm 53:1-3, Ecc. 7:20:

    Rom 3:10 As it is written: ["There is none righteous, no, not one;]
    Rom 3:11 [There is none who understands;] [There is none who seeks after God.]
    Rom 3:12 [They have all turned aside;] [They have together become unprofitable;] [There is none who does good, no, not one."]

    Though although the law is there to shut everyone up that none could consider themselves righteous we know:

    Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

    However:

    Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

    Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all [fn] who believe. For there is no difference;

    Being freed:

    Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

    He demonstrated God’s righteousness (A life in perfect obedience to His Torah):

    Rom 3:25 whom God set forth [as] a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,

    Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

    Therefore, a man is only justified by the law of faith, and not by the law of works:

    Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

    For God is the God of the Jews and the Gentiles, and will judge each accordingly. Yet, however, do we do away with the law, or stop doing it? CERTAINLY NOT. In fact, we continue to do it that it may be prolonged and sought after:

    Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

    Yet Abraham was not justified by his works, but because he believed and for this considered righteous:

    Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? ["Abraham believed God, and it was] [accounted to him for righteousness."]

    Here we can see such a blessed thing that God would forgive a man of his deeds done against the law. So can we say that it is only to the Jews that a man is forgiven? CERTAINLY NOT! For Abraham was accounted as faithful and considered therefore righteous. And even this accounting of faithfulness was found on him when he was UNCIRCUMCISED!

    Rom 4:10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised.

    So then why did he become circumcised? Abraham became circumcised after already being considered righteous. The reason Abraham circumcised himself was to show that he is righteous. This is to say that if Abraham would not have circumcised himself according to the commandment of the LORD, then he would be proving that he is unrighteous which would rouse God’s anger against him like God was roused against Moses for not proving his righteousness and circumcising his son according to the commandment of the LORD:

    Exd 4:24 And it came to pass on the way, at the encampment, that the LORD met him and sought to kill him.

    So we see that those who are of the law cannot be heirs to the promise of the covenant, but only those who are of faith:

    Rom 4:14 For if those who are of the law [are] heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect,
    Rom 4:15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law [there is] no transgression.
    Rom 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith that [it might be] according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all.

    Here we see that because Abraham had faith he believed that when he slept with his wife that she would conceive even though he was 100 years old, he didn’t even consider that he wouldn’t be able to bear seed, he in strength of faith knew that he would bring seed, and Sarah’s womb would bring forth a son. He again proved his righteousness by having faith that showed itself through action:

    Rom 4:19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb.
    om 4:20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God,
    Rom 4:21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform.
    Rom 4:22 And therefore ["it was accounted to him for righteousness."]
    Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him,
    Rom 4:24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead,
    Rom 4:25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

    And we too through faith are imputed as righteous. Therefore let us prove our righteousness, for shall we break the torah? Shall we sin?

    Rom 6:1 WHAT shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
    Rom 6:2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
    Rom 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    So still shall we sin since we are no longer a slave to sin? Certainly NOT!

    Rom 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

    But now we are no longer slaves to sin but to God:

    Rom 6:22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

    Now, therefore, we should delight in the law of God:

    Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

    For we are no longer under the curse that unless we live perfectly we are condemned to death. For our faith is in the perfect redemption through the blood of Yeshua our Messiah. So, since we know this, we obey the law of God with our mind:

    Rom 7:25 I thank God–through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

    The law being spiritual and good and holy, then:

    Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death, but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.

    So with my mind I obey God’s law, and am spiritually minded and peaceful through the obedience of the law.

    However, here in Acts 15 we have the first steps for a Gentile returning to the Lord:

    Act 15:20 “but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, [from] sexual immorality, [fn] [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.
    Act 15:21 “For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

    Here we see four directives by the apostles to the Gentiles:

    1. Abstain from things polluted by idols
    2. Abstain from sexual immorality
    3. Abstain from things strangled
    4. Abstain from blood

    and however this is a five here as well, which implies that the Gentiles on the sabbath are to hear the words of Moses, so lets add a fifth directive:

    5. On the Sabbath, go to a synagogue and hear the words of Moses.

    As towards the argument that there is no festival mentioned. The apostles and Paul are all mentioned as going to a festival after the death and resurrection of Yeshua. If by means of mimic as you say the congregations that Paul spoke to followed after him, then by Paul’s very nature, they as well would be keeping the festivals that Paul is seen as keeping. For example:

    Act 18:21 but took leave of them, saying, “I must by all means keep this coming feast in Jerusalem; [fn] but I will return again to you, God willing.” And he sailed from Ephesus.

    So the Ephesians through mimicking his behavior as you mentioned would keep the coming fest in Jerusalem he was eager to keep.

    Another example:

    Here Paul mentions the Days of Unleavened Bread as if he kept it, and only until after did he leave:

    Act 20:6 But we sailed away from Philippi after the Days of Unleavened Bread, and in five days joined them at Troas, where we stayed seven days.

    Paul is also here quoted as being in a hurry to keep the Day of Pentecost:

    Act 20:16 For Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus, so that he would not have to spend time in Asia; for he was hurrying to be at Jerusalem, if possible, on the Day of Pentecost.

    So, if the Gentiles were to mimic him, they would be keeping all the feasts.

    Here’s another example of how deep Paul kept the law:

    Here you see that because of his teaching many Jews are zealous for the law:

    Act 21:20 And when they heard [it,] they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law;

    He took a Nazarite Vow, and also paid for four other gentleman to partake in the Nazarite vow. Also, he CIRCUMCISES Timothy! Talk about really being into the law:

    Act 18:18 So Paul still remained a good while. Then he took leave of the brethren and sailed for Syria, and Priscilla and Aquila [were] with him. He had [his] hair cut off at Cenchrea, for he had taken a vow.

    The Apostles tell him to pay for the other men’s Nazarite vow to show that he not only believes people should do the law and circumcise their children, but also the customs of the Jews:

    Act 21:21 “but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise [their] children nor to walk according to the customs.

    Act 21:23 “Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow.
    Act 21:24 “Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave [their] heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but [that] you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law.

    Act 21:25 “But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written [and] decided that they should observe no such thing, [fn] except that they should keep themselves from [things] offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.”

    But remember they also had a fifth directive that said they will hear the words of Moses in the synagogue.

    Here Paul calls himself a Pharisee (Not just one by birth, and not one prior, but one still):

    Act 23:6 But when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, “Men [and] brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!”

    Here Paul says the things he did while in those twelve days were worship in the temple, which includes his vow, his paying the vows, his intent to perform the according sacrifices, and his whole enactment of ritual within the temple. As we can see in the following verse that he was purified according to ritual in the temple:

    Act 24:18 “in the midst of which some Jews from Asia found me purified in the temple, neither with a mob nor with tumult.

    He did everything so much according to ritual no Jew had any wrong to say against him:

    Act 24:20 “Or else let those who are [here] themselves say if they found any wrongdoing [fn] in me while I stood before the council,

    And here we have Paul stating he has made no offense against the law of the Jews:

    Act 25:8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.”

    Here we see him circumcising Timothy: Talk about zealous for the law. HE CIRCUMCISED ANOTHER MAN!:

    Act 16:3 Paul wanted to have him go on with him. And he took [him] and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in that region, for they all knew that his father was Greek.

    So, if the Gentiles followed his life in action, then they would have been zealous for the law.

    The Gentiles that turn to the law are only required to do those five directives, but it seems very implied through other statements by Paul and the Apostles that they should mimic their lives in obedience to the law. One thing the Apostles wanted Paul to clear up was that he was teaching the Gentiles to circumcise their children as noted in Acts 21:21. Here is another implication that not only were the Gentile converts through faith in Yeshua not required to do the law, but seemingly required to teach their children to do the law of God so much they were expected to circumcise their children and giving huge hints to raise them up in the law of the Jews.

    Overwhelming is the results in our infamous NT writings the idea that we are to obey the laws of God. Maybe not immediately, but expecting to continue to the point of full obedience to the Torah as is seen in the text.

    With love,

    Eliazar Perez

  30. I think this issues have been resolved with the subject of the ‘Citizenship of Israel’ thing:

    “Gentiles have been included in the experience – not in becoming Jewish.” societyvs

    I agree with you. Dan Gruber teach that the promise is that Abraham will become the father of the nations. There is not place where is written that the gentiles will become jews. there is not need for it. A Gentile can get the Salvation without need to become jew.

    But, someone that is part of the ‘Spiritual Israel’ has to follow Torah, any citizen of Israel is under ( blessed ) the Torah ( maybe this Israeli came from the Gentile or root ). here the question: Are you a foreign in Israel? the Israelis worship in Shabat but whom is not compromise with God, have not to worship Him in Shabat.

    The ‘Holy gentiles’ (goyim haKadosh) are from the same nature of the jews, the same father thanks to Yeshua.

    The ‘Noahide Laws’ was made up by people who didn’t know this faith. the Torah is open for everyone.

  31. “But, someone that is part of the ‘Spiritual Israel’ has to follow Torah, any citizen of Israel is under ( blessed ) the Torah” (Jorge)

    I am not in Israel – I am in Canada (my home country and cultural place of origin). As for following Torah – I do my part in keeping it – I just don’t keep the rituals and festivals – that is not my culture. I learn from the teachings and build from them in my own experience in my faith with God – and I am thankful for the Torah’s teachings.

  32. Societyvs did you happen to take a look at my post? Closer to the end of it I typed several instances of the Apostles and Paul obeying the Torah, saying they obeyed the Torah, and even circumcising people, not to mention keeping festivals and the Sabbath. Which, by your induction, if they were to mimic the Apostles and Paul, would by that same mimicking be doing all the above aforementioned.

  33. ” Paul obeying the Torah, saying they obeyed the Torah, and even circumcising people” Eliazar Perez

    any implication that Paul ever was for circumcision is pure insanity. he brought a law-free gospel to the gentiles and argues in all 10 undisputed letters that “we fulfill the law… and the law can be summed up in one word: Love.” he advocates against circumcision in Galatians admonishing them that “Did you recieve the Spirit by doing the words of the law or by believing what your heard? Are you so foolish? Having started with the Spirit, you are now ending with the flesh?” (Gal 3:2-3).

    Paul is adamently against the supposed “super-apostles” who mix the Law with faith. any other reading is ideological in nature and misreads the entire body of the epistles.

  34. i really can’t comment too much on this thread aside from the last post… I think anyone who claims they’re messianic jews automatically misread Paul’s letters and the core of Judaism’s unfulfilled messianic promise.

    can you be a torah observant christian? yup! but it doesn’t work the other way around. if you’re following Jesus, you’re a Christian by fundamental definition. Anything else is inaccurate. yet thinking that Christians trump Jews here is also a sin of Christianity. Do we abolish the law? BY NO MEANS! We fulfill it! (Ro 3:31, Gal. 5:18).

    so we are equal to and akin with our Jewish brothers and sisters in many ways, but with very different beliefs and practices. the messiah is a big defining factor.. if you think one has come, YOU’RE NOT JEWISH! it’s really that simple.

  35. any implication that Paul ever was for circumcision is pure insanity. (Luke)

    So I guess he had a lapse of sanity when he circumcised Timothy.

    he brought a law-free gospel to the gentiles and argues in all 10 undisputed letters that “we fulfill the law… and the law can be summed up in one word: Love.” (Luke)

    How can you have a law-free gospel? If you remove the law, then what law guarantees you have eternal life by the Messiah’s perfect keeping of the law? You effectively remove the rug right from underneath you.

    he advocates against circumcision in Galatians admonishing them that “Did you recieve the Spirit by doing the words of the law or by believing what your heard? Are you so foolish? Having started with the Spirit, you are now ending with the flesh?” (Gal 3:2-3). (Luke)

    This is the fundamental misunderstanding of Paul. It is not MJs who misunderstand Paul, it is traditional Christianity. When he uses the term “circumcision” he is not referring to the Torah. He is referring to the conversion ritual of the Pharisees.

  36. circumcision is no longer required. Not only Paul, but Peter, James and the other apostles and leaders agreed to make this official doctrine (Acts 15). Their decision was not arbitrary, but was based on Peter’s vision from God and observation that the Holy Spirit was given to the uncircumcised (Acts 10:1-11:18).

    Is Paul’s teaching on circumcision contradictory? Paul knew that circumcision was only an external sign that didn’t mean anything in and of itself (Rom 2:28-29). Since the New Covenant was now in effect, circumcision was no longer a command, hence 1 Corinthians 7:19 isn’t a contradiction. However, if Christian men were circumcised because they believed they had to obey the Mosaic Law in order to be saved, they were effectively saying Christ’s sacrifice was not enough to save them. In this case circumcision was an outward sign of their not trusting Christ. Paul told these men that circumcision would only help them if they could subsequently obey the entire law, for they were now depending on their own deeds to save them, not Christ. Reading Galatians 5:2 in context (Gal 5:2-6) makes this clear.

    If Paul warned the Galatians not to have themselves circumcised in order to please Jews (Gal 6:12), why did he have Timothy circumcised for seemingly the same reason? Most likely, Paul’s goal was to make his and Timothy’s evangelism among the Jews easier. The Jews would consider Timothy a Gentile because he was uncircumcised and his father was a Gentile, which meant they would not associate with him (Acts 10:28). Since these Jews were not yet Christians, and since Timothy understood that his salvation was through Christ and not through circumcision or obeying the law, Paul didn’t have the same reasons to be concerned about it that he did with the Galatians. Circumcision ultimately meant nothing, so there was no harm in Timothy’s doing it for the purposes of removing obstacles to evangelism (cf. 1 Cor 9:20-21).

    as for the conversion ritual of the pharisee? which one and based on what evidence? we have no conversion manuscripts from the pharisees primarily because the Jewish religion doesn’t actively seek converts. it’s non-evangelical. nice try, but that idea is completely unfounded and doesn’t fit anywhere in the socio-historic context of 1st and 2nd century Judaism.

  37. Luke, please read my post towards the end, and chew on the evidence I displayed on my text. It is self-evident. Especially where the apostles told Paul to help four other gentleman complete their vow to prove that he taught the law and even taught that they should circumcise their children. Please, read the verses, and look at the context. Please. Thank you Luke.

  38. “expecting to continue to the point of full obedience to the Torah as is seen in the text.” -Eliazar Perez

    yup! but what parts of the Torah? Paul states that Gentiles do NOT have to make a full conversion b/c Gentiles who follow Christ’s teachings and “put on the mind of Christ” already fulfill the law completely and do not need to be circumcised.

    Anytime anyone says anything is self-evident, they are either stupid, ignorant, or both. NOTHING is self-evident unless you have Paul standing there talking directly to you! it’s about interpretation within the socio-historic context within the arc of Paul’s epistles.

    now am i saying that we should complete disregard the law? BY NO MEANS! what i am saying is that if you follow Christ, you can in no way call yourself Jewish. plain and simple. you can be a Torah observant Christian and i think that’s perfectly acceptable and if you INTERPRET Paul to mean you shouldn’t eat pork, shellfish NOR should you dress in only one fabric and leave a corner of your field for gleening… have at it! But belief in a messiah automatically excludes you from the Jewish community.

    my only concern is not how you interpret Paul, as i’ve written i obviously have an opinion, my concern is in the accuracy of the title that you give yourself. Messianic Jew, Jews for Jesus, or any other title is just plain silly and completely inaccurate.

  39. Luke, will you please read all the verses I wrote towards the bottom of my post, post #33. I list the verses that make it evident what commandments they did, and even listed there are the commandments they taught. I’ll give you one example of what I wrote above. Point in case:

    Here in Acts 15 we have the first steps for a Gentile returning to the Lord:

    Act 15:20 “but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, [from] sexual immorality, [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.
    Act 15:21 “For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

    Here we see four directives by the apostles to the Gentiles:

    1. Abstain from things polluted by idols
    2. Abstain from sexual immorality
    3. Abstain from things strangled
    4. Abstain from blood

    and, however, this is a fifth here as well, which implies that the Gentiles on the Sabbath are to hear the words of Moses, so lets add a fifth directive:

    5. On the Sabbath, go to a synagogue and hear the words of Moses.

    Even more so, lets look at what our Messiah says through his Spirit in Isaiah:

    Isa 56:6-7 “Also the sons of the foreigner Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him, And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants – Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And holds fast My covenant – Even them I will bring to My holy mountain, And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices [Will be] accepted on My altar; For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”

    Here it is quite evident that the Spirit of the Lord is not against the gentiles obey his Torah. Here it is self-evident that the Spirit of the Lord desires for them to keep his covenant by obeying his Law. So, here we see in Acts 15, the Spirit of the Lord saying for those Gentiles who have turned to the Lord, they would do well by:

    1. Abstain from things polluted by idols
    2. Abstain from sexual immorality
    3. Abstain from things strangled
    4. Abstain from blood

    And:

    5. On the Sabbath, go to a synagogue and hear the words of Moses.

    But yet, not that they must stop there, which is quite evident that though no one tells them to do more, that the Lord himself has already told them in his Word that he desires that they would do more, and rewards them richly.

    Even yet still, lets here the words of our Messiah, who is the embodiment of the Spirit of the Lord, in speaking to Jews, however can be applied to Gentiles, for we know we are to have one law amongst the native born and the foreign born:

    Lev 24:22 ‘You shall have the same law for the stranger and for one from your own country; for I [am] the LORD your God.’”

    Num 15:16 ‘One law and one custom shall be for you and for the stranger who dwells with you.’”*

    Num 15:29 ‘You shall have one law for him who sins unintentionally, [for] him who is native-born among the children of Israel and for the stranger who dwells among them.

    [b]Now the words of our Messiah[/b]:

    Matthew 5:19-20 “So whoever disobeys the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. [b]For I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the teachers of the law and the Pharisees, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven!”[/b]

    So, first:

    1. Whoever doesn’t do the law, and teaches others not to do the law will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven.
    2. Whoever does the law, and teaches others to do the law will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
    3. If you don’t even at least obey the law, how do you expect to enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

    For point number 3 to be even more emphasized. To prove that Messiah wants all to do the Torah, and plus. Lets look at another one of this words:

    Matthew 23:23 “Woe to you hypocritical teachers of the law and Pharisees! You pay your tithes of mint, dill and cumin; but you have neglected the weightier matters of the Law – justice, mercy, trust. These are the things you should have attended to – without neglecting the others!”

    Here our Messiah tells them that they should attend to paying their tithes of mint, dill and cumin, [b]while[/b] being just, merciful, and full of trust!

    So, this verse (Matthew 23:23) coupled with the verses above this one (Matthew 5:19-20) state (and understood with Lev. 24:22; Num. 15:16; Num 15:29; which state we shall have one law for the native and foreign born):

    1. Anyone (Gentile or Jew) will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven if you don’t obey the law and teach others to not obey the law.
    2. Anyone (Gentile or Jew) will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven if you obey the law and teach others to obey the law.
    3. Anyone (Gentile or Jew) who doesn’t at least obey the lighter aspects of the Torah (as example giving above: paying tithe of mint, dill, and cumin) will certainly not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
    4. Anyone (Gentile or Jew) should have in the forefront of their mind not only doing the lighter aspects of the law, but the weightier aspects of the law, which are justice, mercy, and trust.

    For all who read this, please contemplate the words of our Lord in these verses, for they are life and freedom. Blessings brothers, and shalom.

    Eliazar

  40. Eliazar,

    that’s all fine, well and good… but do you call yourself a Messianic Jew? if you don’t, we don’t have a problem. if you do, then i have a bone to pick with you.

    we can sit and quote bible verses at each other all day long, but that would only get us to where our current state of denominations get us… separated over interpretation. like i said before, my concern is with the accuracy of your title.

  41. I’ll add a number 5:

    5. Anyone (Gentile or Jew) who is in the Kingdom of Heaven now, and continues not to do the law, although now will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven (as evidenced in point 1), however will not enter later in the Kingdom of Heaven (as evidenced in point 5). To further belabor this point lets look at another word of our Messiah:

    Matt 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, only those who do what my Father in heaven wants. On that Day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord! Didn’t we prophesy in your name? Didn’t we expel demons in your name? Didn’t we perform many miracles in your name? Then I will tell them to their faces, ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!'”

    Which the end there, is a quote from Psalm

    Psalm 6:8a “Depart from me, all you workers of iniquity;”

    And again:

    Matthew 14:40-42 “Just as the weeds are collected and burned up in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out of his Kingdom all the things that cause people to sin and all the people who are far from the Law; and they will throw them into the fiery furnace, where people will wail and grind their teeth.”

    This last verse states again for the belaboring of point 5:

    1. If you (Gentile or Jew) do not obey the law and teach others to do so, then you will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven (for now). However, if you continue to not obey the Law, then on that Day (of Judgement), the Son of Man will tell his Father he does not know you, and his angels will throw you into the fiery furnace (Lake of Fire), where people will wail and grind their teeth (forever).

    For those who have an ear let them hear!

    Eliazar

  42. The accuracy of my title? According to the scriptures doesn’t it say the you and I are of “The Way”?

    Act 9:2a “and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way,”

    Act 19:9a “But when some were hardened and did not believe, but spoke evil of the Way”

    Act 19:23 “And about that time there arose a great commotion about the Way.”

    Act 22:4a “I persecuted this Way”

    Act 24:14 “But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets.

    Act 24:22a “But when Felix heard these things, having more accurate knowledge of [the] Way,”

    For isn’t Yeshua The Way?

    Jhn 14:6a “Jesus said to him, “I am the way,”

    What about the title, “Christian”?

    Act 11:26 “And when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. So it was that for a whole year they assembled with the church and taught a great many people. And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.”

    However, the Greek here says, “Little Christs” or “Little Anointed Ones”, however Christos is not an actual word, but the word that is an actual word is “Chrisos” which means smeared oil.

    However we could argue that the word “Christians’ here is actually the word “Chrestians” which is an actual word. There was a man named Chrest during this time who incited a rebellion against the government. So, the people in Antioch seeing how wherever Barnabas and Paul went there would be a riot due to the Jews who would harass them wherever they went, saw the Apostles as people who incited riots. The, however, here, would be that they themselves weren’t inciting riots for evil, but because of their righteousness, riots would erupt. However, I don’t see anywhere where the Messiah, the Apostles, or Paul called themselves, “Christians”.

    So if you are called a Christian because you are righteous, then accept the title. However, if you are called a Christian because of being evil, then shame on you, and repent.

    As for myself, I am of The Way. People call me a Messianic Jew. People call me a Christian. People call me a Jew. People call me a Gentile. People call me many things in reference towards my faith.

    If we are to be literal then I call myself of “The Way”, which those of the way believe:

    Act 24:14 “But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets.

    Eliazar

  43. Here in Acts 15 we have the first steps for a Gentile returning to the Lord” (Eliazar)

    Eliazar – I broke this down before but I will do it again – so we do not forget the context of what is being debated in Acts 15 – which is circumcision.

    Acts 15:1 “Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” – The issue of contention is circumcision and it’s tying to being ‘saved’ – part of the community.

    Acts 15:2 “And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue.” – Paul doesn’t agree with the idea – thus he debates them – so they go to Jerusalem for further on the issue.

    Acts 15:5-6 “But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.” The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter” – The point is raised again – circumcision and the law are looked at for being required for Gentiles.

    Acts 15:11 “But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are” – Peter makes it clear they all saved and included in this community by ‘the grace of Jesus’ – not by circumcision or the law

    Acts 15:19-20 “Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.” – James’ verdict is ‘do not trouble the Gentiles’ and gives them 4 generic things to remember in their communities (where Paul is visiting and making conversions)

    Acts 15:21 “For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.” – The point is the Jewish faithful will always endure – no matter if they include the Gentiles – because Moses is preached in every synagogue. They are not going to ‘trouble’ the Gentiles with this task either – from verse 5 – concerning the law of Moses.

    Acts 15:28-29 “For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.” – Paul reads the letter in the Gentile communities – God has blessed these instructions – but notice the only burden in the letter is the 4 things James has laid out – and not the role of circumcision or law of Moses.

    and, however, this is a fifth here as well, which implies that the Gentiles on the Sabbath are to hear the words of Moses, so lets add a fifth directive” (Eliazar)

    Your debate for the verse 21 to be included is actually not true in the context – James mentions it in Jerusalem (where they do keep law as Jews) – but is not included in the letter to the Gentiles – meaning why would you place that ‘burden’ upon them? They did not.

    I offer an alternative reading of verse 21 that makes more sense within the context of where it written and included – that the point is about not ‘bothering’ the Gentiles with the law of Moses because this is not an issue for them – Moses is preached in every synagogue – this is not a Gentile imperative.

    So, here we see in Acts 15, the Spirit of the Lord saying for those Gentiles who have turned to the Lord, they would do well by…” (Eliazar)

    Wrong. The Spirit of the Lord is used in verse 28-29 – where there is no mention of keeping the law – only the 4 directives for the Gentile communities.

    To prove that Messiah wants all to do the Torah” (Eliazar)

    That’s not the contention – I’d be lying if I said I do not obey Torah – when my moral guideline is based on the teachings of Jesus. The contention is that the Gentiles are not asked to keep the majority of the law by the Jerusalem Council – but they are still taught the morality within it.

    Now to break down Matthew 5:17-20

    Matt 5:17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill” – Jesus is not abolishing nothing – but is concerned with fulfillment – which I would take to mean concerning ‘prophetic utterances’ concerning the messiah. You do not really fulfill the law – not like you fulfill the prophets.

    Matt 5:18 “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished” – Verse 18 backs up this point from 17 – with the term ‘accomplished’ – likely concerning the prophecies concerning the Messiah (which the writer would be concerned with in this book).

    Matt 5:19 “Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” – This is not setting up the ‘law of Moses’ because if it is – why didn’t they use the terminology ‘law of Moses’? They use commandments – and we see this is chapters 5-7 – and even more in the teachings used later on the book. The emphasis is upon the teachings Jesus is relating within the book of Matthew as commandments of Jesus.

    Matt 5:20 “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven” – Your practice needs to surpass the practice of the Pharisee’s – how can this be accomplished? You need to live according to Jesus’ teachings on Torah.

    We begin to see this set up through-out chapter 5 – with teachings on adultery, murder, divorce, vows, revenge, and equality. The perfection of the teachings of God are found in following and examining the spirit of the law – towards everyone. If Jesus is fulfilling the law – he is breaking it down to the intents of the law – this is within the ‘heart’ of a person and not so concerned with outside the person.

    Matt 15:18-19 “But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.” – This looks very similar to everything in chapter 5 (even the topics are the same). The goal of Torah is to guide our hearts – of great concern is the way one would act. Jesus can actually be seen in this section invalidating a few concepts – namely kosher laws (vs. 11) and even washing of hands (vs. 2).

    Through-out Matthew Jesus butts heads with the Pharisee’s over interpretation and focus. This relates to Matthew 5:20 obviously – but also to the Torah-nic focus of Jesus. Show me where Jesus gives the law of Moses to the Gentiles – in terms of customs and festivals to follow. We do not find this from Jesus – because this was not his concern.

    Again – and I say this for the Nth time – everything you claim for interpretation in the NT and Gentiles following the customs and festivals is not there – it’s always an ‘implied’ type interpretation. There is nothing straight-forward concerning Gentiles following all of the Jewish customs – nothing at all.

    Even the passages you use – are of the nature of being implied through the verse – although the verse says nothing as explicitly as you claim it does. Yet when someone can find many verses showing the opposite – and it is stated explicitly right in the passage (not being implied – but written down quite plainly) – this evidence is to be ignored for a more ‘implied’ type interpretation. You have to be kidding if someone should accept any of this on the basis of ideas being ‘implied’ from outside the actual texts.

    The problem with most of this is – where is the synagogue tradition in the early church? I mean, you claim this is so – so where in early church history do we find the extension of this tradition? At some point in early church history the Gentiles are excluded from the synagogue by the Jewish faithful – this is known. What did the Christians do? They made writings – and within those writings – there is no direct imperative for a Gentile Christian to follow the Jewish customs.

    And that’s the real problem with the strength of your theology – Gentiles would of needed this stuff spelled out in the writings – so they could keep it – like how you have it laid out on your neat little site there (for people to observe and read). None of that happens – not even in the Didache. No one is helping the Gentiles to follow Torah – which they would not have since they are excluded from synagogue at some point. So where is the document that lays out how Gentiles are to follow the Torah? Is it the Jerusalem council site – some 1900 years after the fact?

  44. Act 24:14 “But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets.

    Acts 26: 28-29 “Agrippa replied to Paul, “In a short time you will persuade me to become a Christian.” And Paul said, “I would wish to God, that whether in a short or long time, not only you, but also all who hear me this day, might become such as I am, except for these chains.”

    Is this just Paul who has little concern with being called a Christian? No ‘way’!

    What is also strange about Paul in his trial is these words:

    Acts 25:8-11 “while Paul said in his own defense, “I have committed no offense either against the Law of the Jews or against the temple or against Caesar.”

    But Festus, wishing to do the Jews a favor, answered Paul and said, “Are you willing to go up to Jerusalem and stand trial before me on these charges?”

    But Paul said, “I am standing before Caesar’s tribunal, where I ought to be tried. I have done no wrong to the Jews, as you also very well know.

    If, then, I am a wrongdoer and have committed anything worthy of death, I do not refuse to die; but if none of those things is true of which these men accuse me, no one can hand me over to them. I appeal to Caesar.”

    Paul appeals to be tried by Caesar – not by the Jewish authorities of the Jewish law. Paul claims to committing no crime against the law – so he has nothing to really worry about – yet he still appeases to be tried by the law of Rome (Caesar). But Paul would rather be tried by Gentiles than Jews for some odd reason – thought this guy was a strict Pharisee?

  45. SVS,

    no use dude… i think Elizar is one of those “don’t confuse me with the facts when my mind is made up” types. the interpretation here completely ignores the arc of Paul in Corthinians, Romans, and Galatians when concerning the Law. we can say this dude is a follower of Christ and Torah observant and just let it rest.

    otherwise it’d be (and has been) like talking to a wall.

  46. Agreed Luke – damn it all seems so obvious to me – yet how can one argue to someone who will not consider the obvious words in front of their faces? You cannot.

    Fact is Paul discourages and does not advocate circumcision (a law of Moses) – and teaches this in his letters (very obvious). Yet I am to believe he is only doing this because it is tied to salvation and Paul really does want people circumcised – just not when they convert (maybe later on). But that makes no logical sense either – because if it is a such a non-issue that Paul could teach on later – why not just allow the circumcision of all Gentiles if this is what he wants? Then teach them later on their confusion concerning the issue. Why forbid it in the first place?

    It’s like if someone comes to me and wants to be baptized to be saved. Well I know that baptism does not make one ‘saved’ – it’s symbolic of what is happening with the person (this new lifestyle and cleansing). I will not hesitate to allow them this ritual of baptism – knowing I can teach them about this later to clear up any confusion. I do not forbid them because they are in error theologically – if this was so – there would be no converts ever.

    Paul does not care about circumcision and the only time it is addressed is when he needs to teach Gentiles of it’s non-importance in concerns with following Jesus. He stops people from getting circumcised – stops them – and this is a ritual he wants them to do? Talk about having no proof to bring to an argument.

    Everything they do is implied – like the texts obviously say what they think it does – meanwhile the text says nothing as clear as they do. I should drop Paul, Peter, John and James and follow Israel or Eliazar – at least they can outline their beliefs in a very straight-forward way – so as there is no confusion surrounding the issues concerning Jewish law and ritual. I can say it plainly ‘if they are right – Paul and Peter are wrong – and if not wrong – they couldn’t explain themselves very clearly’. So why follow people who hide everything in vagueness – when I can follow people so direct?

    But then I would have to prove that Paul, James, Peter, and John were not direct – when in fact they were very direct!

  47. Circumcision………..Well the only thing I could possibly add to this convo. Damn that must hurt, good thing you dont remember much when youre that young. Oh by the way, ive heard that circumcision can take away up to 70% of your sexual sensation, now, that is as good as any reason to not do that to your kid ;)

  48. wow John T. 70%?! circumcision is just not cutting it for me. oh wait… ;-)

    Excellent response SVS! Well wrapped up and you even point out the contradictions and vagueness in the epistles. i think you’d love this book i’m reading now for class about Paul.. it’s called Navigating Paul, an introduction to key theological concepts by Jouette M. Bassler. It’s literally 96 pages long but it is the best thing i’ve read on Paul period.

    Paul is hard. what we can say is that he did not advocate circumcision and advocated FOR a law free gospel (Phil 3:2, Romans, Galations as previously stated). As to the contextual HOWS of the gospel are where there is no possible prospect of a consensus view.

  49. You ask where it says that Gentiles should do Torah. Here it is:

    Isa 56:6-7 “Also the sons of the foreigner Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him, And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants – Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And holds fast My covenant – Even them I will bring to My holy mountain, And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices [Will be] accepted on My altar; For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”

    This is Yeshua speaking through the Holy Spirit through Isaiah. Since God doesn’t change his mind, then his words later in our N.T. will not disagree with his own very words here.

    Here Yeshua says the Gentiles will:

    1. Join themselves to the LORD.
    2. They will serve Him.
    3. They will love the name of the LORD.
    4. They will be his servants.
    5. They will keep his Sabbaths.
    6. They will keep his covenant.
    7. They will offer burnt offerings.
    8. They will offer sacrifices.

    These are all things Yeshua wants Gentiles to do. He will burden them with no more than what he said in Acts 15, but he wants them to do so much more! And he rewards them richly.

  50. Eliazar, I shall answer your critique:

    (a) to start off the premise I am not an expert in Torahnic theology – if you want a better understanding of this passage – we should include an expert in the conversation – like a rabbi.

    Here is my breakdown:

    (a) You are arguing backwards in a sense – using a teaching from Prophets to bolster an idea that does not exist in the NT. If I were to follow this passage to it’s ‘tee’ – then I need to convert to Judaism within an acceptable form of Judaism – as it stands – Messianic Judaism is not seen as a authentic form – so what should I do?

    (b) I find it odd that Jesus used this text once but never uses it in the same way you do here – to justify the inclusion of the Gentiles is based on keeping Jewish law. If this passage is so – which writer in the NT will defend you point with referencing it?

  51. These are all things Yeshua wants Gentiles to do. He will burden them with no more than what he said in Acts 15, but he wants them to do so much more! And he rewards them richly.

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