And in this corner…wait…they both say they represent the same man?

I think my big problem is the consevative Christian agenda and their narrow-mindedness. To me the the fundamentalist interpretation of our faith is in opposition to what is actually taught by Jesus. I watch guys like James Robison, Falwell, Robertson, Hagee, Dobson, and a hoarde of others – and as sincere as they come off – they are also very narrow-minded. If I went purely by their rhetoric for what they would do if they ran the country – I’d go into hiding. They openly dislike gay people, they aren’t very open to religious freedom of others, they support the war efforts (no matter what the USA does), they deny the existence of global warming, ‘end time’ theology seems to be a core of their belief set, intolerance to people not ‘saved’, they are still against the rights of women (in the church), stand opposed to safe sex practices (except for abstinence), Israel can do ‘no wrong’, and this list just keeps going. Sounds a little Taliban-esque to me?

Frankly their teachings/rhetoric are half the reason for bad fundamentalist actions like: shooting abortion doctors & blowing up clinics, atheists getting death threats, and Muslims being apprehensive of American policy. The core of their beliefs come off very klan-ish or clandestine. When someone says adamantly ‘it’s their way or hell’ – you can bet not all the memebers are going to have the sensibilities to be able to run that through their mind correctly. Some of those people have a strong ‘us and them’ mentality and they react upon it and create some crazy groups like ‘jonestown’ or ‘creator rights party’ (anti-abortion extremists). Hell, even Mel White of Soulforce is adamantly not welcome in Falwell’s congregation – for being gay and outing the agenda that Falwell has ‘against’ gay peoples.

Nothing about that group of people is very appealing or is accurate about the person of Jesus in the bible – or maybe they are and I am deluded. Either way, as a responsible and logical Christian person I have to speak out against their agenda’s…but then again, maybe I got this faith all wrong and I am reading into the bible what I want to see and the fundie is correct? If so, I’d rather be wrong.

Do we need to speak out against the ‘fundie’ agenda? Are the fundies representative of what’s in the bible? Is a moderate like myself ‘way off base’ in what he reads about Jesus? Is being conservative the Christian way or is being more liberal the Christian way? Well above is all my opinion and it came from here (read below).

Some of my opinion comes from reading and conversing with Atheists and their critiques of the faith (and reading the news or watching fundie programs for proof) – and they say we ‘Christians’ don’t speak out against our own faith (against the fundies) – you know what they are right and the critique is valid. Sam Harris and Dawkins have called us out on that kind of stuff – and I agree with them – ‘oh no he agree’s with an atheist’s critique’ – in them is an outside source who sees what we do and they are scared of what they see. So why don’t we speak out?

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34 thoughts on “And in this corner…wait…they both say they represent the same man?

  1. I think most people who are serious about their faith don’t watch t.v. preachers. I don’t and I don’t know anyone who does. They don’t represent us. I agree however, that it is wrong for Christians to put their hope for moral change in politics but Christians should have a seat at the table of ideas just as the atheist. I can’t excuded anyone soley because their ideas are repugnant to me.

    I also try to refrain from using disparaging labels for those who don’t agree with me.

    Jonestown was not a religious cult so much as political. It was an experiment in socialism. They were attempting to prove that a purely socialist community was superior to capitalism.

    Charismatic, manipulative, self-seekers will use any ideology within their grasp in order to gain power. Religion is one tool and politics another. The combination of the two is highly desirable to such people.

    Pam

  2. Pam, great insight – thanks for the comment…I appreciate you!

    “Jonestown was not a religious cult so much as political” (Pam)

    It was strongly both – Jones got those people to the island on their belief in God. Everything I have ever seen on that event always comes down to the people’s religious leanings and strength of beliefs in God (but Jones did have some strong poltical agendas mixed in his faith).

    “Charismatic, manipulative, self-seekers will use any ideology within their grasp in order to gain power. Religion is one tool and politics another.” (Pam)

    So true. But I think we need to talk about these things also and how they are deterioating our faith. I think some of the people mentioned in this blog – their ministries – need to be looked at more rigorously and then questioned.

    Ken has a friend right now that is speaking against the Miracle Channel’s questionable fund-raising practices – and he is onto something there – he is keeping that station accountable (and I give that dude my 100% support for asking honest questions). Check out Ken’s blog and click on the ‘Miracle Channel review’ link and read what this dude has uncovered – shocking that a Christian station, tainted by Capitalism, would (in my opinion) betray their faith. But I think that dude is doing the right thing by speaking out and calling for our faith to stand up be accounted for – to be honest about ‘these skeletons’. I think it is just a matter of time before death threats come his way.

  3. Society,

    I think you are right on with this post. Every Christian should read Sam Harris, “Letter to a Christian Nation.” There is a difference between regular folks who happen to be fundamentalists religion helps them. It is simple it works. They are good moral people. Then there are the neocons or the powerbrokers who you have named. These are leaders who push their ignorance and superstition through fear of hell and so forth.

    Part of the problem–I speak as a minister is that we have been defensive of theology rather than critical of it. Few preachers in the church tell their congregation or young people about higher criticism or even encourage them to think about the faith. So, basically the atheist websites like debunking Christianity does it for them and frankly they are not friendly to faith, but they are right in terms biblical criticism and questioning dogmas and so forth. Because the church is lacking is critical theology we have not been able to speak against the neocons. They quote the Bible. We have not done our job in enabling people in the church to understand how to read the bible critically so they can make good judgments themselves and against the neocons who have hijacked the language in the pursuit of power.

    Whew, long sermon!

  4. Society,

    I think in general, people today have the idea of ministry all wrong. Jesus didn’t set up any special programs or orginizations and He did found a religion nor any kind of political think tank. Jesus didn’t even come to serve us but instead, to do the Will of the Father. Jesus lived His Life moment by moment at His Father’s direction. An old fashioned expression that I like is that of being an instrument of God. Jesus was totally an instument of God on the earth. That also is what true ministry is, doing the Will of God moment by moment as God directs us. If we quit looking to each other to be God and man-willed, man-made, man-opererted, man-purposed, orginizations as ministry and see them as they are, organizations by which some make a living, we won’t be easily deceived by the labels they bear.

    When someone claims to be spiritual, we must test the spirits and find what spirit they are of and not judge by outward appearances or claims.

    All master manipulators gain their power by promising people what they want and we are misled by our own mistaken desires.

    I’ll check out the websight but I’ve too much trouble keeping my own self in line to worry too much about holding anyone else accountable…besides there are too many of them to keep up with.
    :0(

    Pam

  5. Wow! Three amazing comments there!

    Pam, at one time I felt I had no right (or at least no desire) to be vocal about my concerns and would certainly not call some one in ministry to task for what they teach. Now I feel it in not only OK, it is a duty. I have respect for most in ministry to the point that they are only doing what they were taught in seminary. Beyond that I will speak my peace as I see is appropriate. I have seen rather convincing biblical support for doing just what some out there are doing which is standing up for the truth, especially when there are vulnerable souls out there being victimized. It’s not for the meek though.

    Society! I am pleased that you like the radical activist, my friend Tim. Next time he comes to Regina we should meet for coffee πŸ™‚

    John Shuck, I can’t agree more. I am a bit hard on people in ministry and I think I have a right to be. It is obvious to me that there needs to be a change. To me, the ministry must do two things. They must teach the people to read the bible in such a way that they can recognize what can be made doctrine (because it is a main and plain thing) and what must be left up to personal interpretation. Then they must work to incorporate only that doctrine that can be agreed upon and allow open discussion on what is not yet unanimous. Sounds drastic, but I think necessary.

    I am so convinced by what I have been learning that I could stand up to some of the huxters of today, think of what a united stand by influential Christians (and there is a number of them already) could do to stop the predatory types in their tracks.

    Oh, Pam just posted again πŸ™‚ Hey Pam, I know exactly what you feel like as I was there for a long time. I found though that my time I have invested in listening to what others are saying has woken up a feeling in me that is much more valuable than what I had before. To know that I can back up what I believe is comforting. It is hard to explain. Love what you wrote there!

  6. brotherken,

    We should all know why we believe what we believe. Studying to show ourselves approved by God is self-defense 101 in the world of wolves in sheeps clothing.

    I never meant to imply that what you are doing is incorrect, it just isn’t what God is calling me to do at this time. I’ve already done my stint in traditional church leadership and that just isn’t where i’m at anymore. All I want to do is tell people about Jesus.:0)

    Pam

  7. Pam. That is great! I do not mean to imply that you should or should not be anything other than what you feel God is prompting you to do. That is one of the important teachings I think we must implement, respect for others to make up their own mind. As long as I am getting a good feeling of respect from someone I am going to be respectful. And I get a good feeling from you. It goes deeper than respect and I am sure you know what I mean.

    The kind of brotherhood we feel as co-believers in Christ is also what makes me want to challenge what is being taught. There are some teaching our faith is about success and personal gain and they rob people of not just their money but also their spirit. I speak for the vulnerable, unfortunately that means I speak against the wolves.

  8. Don’t put a dog in that fight…its a phrase I was using for a couple of days, it meant something to me then, but somehow this topic triggered the saying in my mind again…I guess it is because I don’t bother with t.v. personalities, certain kinds of politics or etc. It is not something I bother with…maybe some time later, but for now, I guess other things have my attention…there are times when we definitely need to put our two cents in or a dog in the fight…I guess I am looking for the best arena for change…right now though I ususally just let other people lead the way…my flaw at this point probably

  9. My Garden, Those who jump in the fight to expose corruption in the name of our Lord are not concerned that everyone else is not doing the same thing. They just do it because they feel that is what God wants them to do. I can tell you that they question themselves and wonder why they bother at times. The know this isn’t for everyone. We all are just trying to do something with the time we have. I wouldn’t call what you do or don’t do flawed if you are doing what you feel God wants you to do.

  10. Jason, I think we do speak out. But let’s be honest here, Conservatives have control and have set their belief system up as the only way. When the threat of eternal hell is in the balance, it is easier to fall on the side of caution. It takes a lot of courage to stand against their abuse because you are going to be cut off from the community as well as condemned to hell. If, however, the fundies are right I will be on my way to hell. I can’t live my life in fear anymore.

  11. “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.”
    Matthew 7:13-14

    Sounds like a narrow-minded guy. I doubt your athiest friends would like him very much.

  12. Over here in the United States a lot of evangelicals used to vote Democratic even as late as the Jimmy Carter days.

    Then the democratic leadership flipped and became pro-abortion.

    I find it very hard to believe an authentic Christian can condone abortion on demand.

    Let people have their say against the war in Iraq. What seems hypocritical to me, however, is the way the same people who oppose the occupation of Iraq are the same ones who want to go invade Sudan. I don’t see how anyone can say we’ve made Iraq a much better place to live.

  13. Chris, I know you speak out. In a way speaking out is more a defensive posture, they are the ones on the attack. Are the so called superstars of the faith intimidating? You bet. We were told not to fear the one who could hurt our body but the one who could hurt the soul (or something like that). What I think that means is that we should be more afraid of going along with, or putting up with false preaching than any result that may come from standing up to it (being cast out and persecuted). The religious man who wants to sell you a different gospel (one of prosperity, take-over-the-county politics and worldliness) is the worst kind. Yet I fear no evil for thou art with me.

    Burning Bush, I don’t condone anything that is ungodly. I just don’t see biblical support for Christians pushing morality on a secular society. I think we should oust the corruption in our own arena and be the light to the world that we ought to be.

  14. “I just don’t see biblical support for Christians pushing morality on a secular society.” BrotherKen

    Didn’t John the Baptist tell Herod it was unlawful for him to have his brother’s wife (see Matt. 14)? Was he pushing his morality on a secular individual?

    Do you believe murder can be politically prohibited because it is immoral? If so, what makes abortion any different?

    Remember that God commanded Israel to wipe out the Canaanites because of their immorality. What happens when we start living like the Canaanites?

  15. “Sounds like a narrow-minded guy. I doubt your athiest friends would like him very much.” (BB)

    I would say Jesus was not very ‘narrow minded’ (there is really no proof for that) but ‘open minded’. It’s true, the atheists don’t like Jesus (nor believe he was who the disciples claim who he was) – but a lot of the atheists actually have more problems with the conservative agenda (a current problem) than with anything else – if you study the atheist arguements they have problems with the bible and God mainly due to what they see from fundie Christianity – and they sense danger.

    As for the broad and narrow way – I am not sure Jesus is talking about eternity in that passage – more about the society around us – how easy it is for us to find ways to hurt ourselves. But some people do find the narrow road – and can enjoy the greatness of what God has ordained in this life.

    “Do you believe murder can be politically prohibited because it is immoral? If so, what makes abortion any different?” (BB)

    The problem with abortion is that as Christians we know we oppose it – but we also need to oppose wack jobs that pick up guns and bombs and attack doctors at these clinics (which to me is even more brutal). If the gov’t see’s fit to change abortion laws – I will comply – but if they don’t – I will still hold my values and comply to their laws.

    But what makes us think that changing the politics has anything to do with God changing hearts? Even if the fundies could change all the laws to reflect what they see as God’s law – would more people develop a closer relationship with God because of this (which seems to be their spiritual goal)? My guess would be no. The law still condemns – it doesn’t save you.

    So why even get in the political arena? If churches are willing to do this then I am more than willing to treat their churches like political forums and all the sermons they preach as campaign rhetoric – which if I don’t vote Conservative (like them) then I do want some democratic people in that church speaking about their views (fair representation).

    “Remember that God commanded Israel to wipe out the Canaanites because of their immorality. What happens when we start living like the Canaanites?” (BB)

    I am not sure of the point to this but by that logic I think we should also be killed? Is this the view Jesus has on modern society? Does God want a lot of people ‘wiped out’ for their actions? If so, what groups exactly is the ‘army of God’ called to destroy? What makes anyone so sure that God doesn’t want the fundie agenda adamantly opposed – or ‘wiped out’? I love it when we look back into the OT and read it into current faith.

  16. Hey Society,

    What about all of the Dems that speak in black churches around election time? Are you as critical of them?

    I’m not really into religious/political groups but I see the same on both sides and not just one. I also have never been told at church who to vote for and there are many Dems in my conservative church. I guess I just don’t think real life is the way it gets painted. I also don’t think the religious right has that much influence. Abortion is a very valuable plank in the Rep platform and they aren’t going to really do anything to end abortion and risk losing that plank. Reps pander to Christians but after the votes are counted, they go back to business as usual.

    I’ve spent a lot of time online talking to atheists as well as atheists that I know in person and you know, the bulk I think really do believe in God but think it is intellectually beneath them to admit it and they take their venom out on those who are very upfront about their spiritual beliefs. One thing I don’t like is blaming one persons actions upon what another group of people do. That is projection and there is way too much of it in our society. I like personal responsibility.

    Pam

  17. Does it not seem improper to use the church as a political influence? To me, it is. You may not have seen how bad this looks when extremely motivated huxters (I refuse to call them ministers) call out there morality from the pulpit or on TV. One, Pat Robertson even ran for President of the US. He resigned from his ministries saying that this is what God told him to do. He did not win the presidency, so he went back to his TV ministries. Now if God told the guy to bid for the Presidents job would he not win? Since he did not win, was he deluded? Probably, but his delusion, if that was what it was, would most likely be a result of years of puffing himself up as a preacher.

    OK, this is an extreme example of the danger of mixing religion and politics, but there are many other examples that are to one degree or another using the faith for there own purpose. They get away with it because even when the mask is pulled off of there charade they are not taken to task. It is just not our way, and I think that is because we have been told that it is not very Christian-like to challenge others who claim to be believers. I have no problem with having to explain why I believe certain things and neither should someone who is ordained.

    One other thing, did you know that a minister of a church cannot back a particular candidate? It is against the laws that govern non-profit organizations. So for a pastor to speak politics they must walk a thin line between speaking as a pastor and a political activist. I don’t know if it has ever happened that a church has lost it’s non-profit status, but I will tell you that it shows a certain level of desperation for a pastor to take that kind of risk, and it doesn’t pass my litmus test of behavior that can be considered Christ-like.

  18. Hi brotherken,

    I’m not sure if you are addressing me? LOL, it’s getting kind of confusing.

    It’s pretty disgusting to me when really powerful Dems like Clinton speak in black churches at election time too. I don’t like it, I just don’t think it is as one sided as it gets painted. Do we equate Martin Luter King and Jery Falwell? No, we don’t but they both are/were pastors with a political agenda. The church has always been a force in the U.S. It is a part of who we are. I’m not for shutting anyone up. I’d probably give my pastor what for if he told me who to vote for and I don’t know of any pastors who do that.

    I don’t like Pat Robertson and he embarrasses me as a Christian but he has a right to say and do what he likes as long as he harms no one. If anyone thinks he could become president, I think they might be a tad whacko. Pat Roberston and Jerry Falwell are media darlings because they are so controversial and always manage to stick their foot in their mouth. I don’t know many Christians who take them seriously. I just can’t take them as a real threat. I don’t want to take their voice away anymore than any other voice that I don’t agree with. This is America! Everyone gets their say!

    I also don’t think that a traditional moral voice at this time is something to be feared but that which is very needed. For me, secular morality is much more frightening. Secularists also have an agenda. Doesn’t everyone?

    Pam

  19. Pam, I know the church is very politically active in the US and is getting more so up in Canada. Because it has been a long standing tradition doesn’t make it right. It is because it has been done for so long that the people have accepted that it is OK to do. This acceptance has empowered whack jobs like Falwell and Robertson be as active as they are. Unchecked, this problem will get worse and the Christian faith will continue to lose credibility. All I can do is tell people that this is wrong and hope they see why. To me, this is more of a general teaching; in general Christians should not be politically active. God has used Christians in political ways in the past and may be doing so still, but there is a growing number of people using the faith for their own gain and Christians ought to know how to recognize the difference between someone who was sent and someone who just went.

    And yes, I do think Falwell, Robertson and the wannabe’s are hurting people. They hurt all Christians because they make a mockery of the faith on the national stage. They give good reason for truth seekers to look elsewhere.

  20. brotherken,

    I can agree that religion shouldn’t be furthered through politics. However, I can’t agree that persons should be procluded from participation the political arena because of their faith or religion. Also, it is fine and good for a person to live by their ideals. I would much prefer my representatives to represent my beliefs. I admit it, I’m biased that way.

    The U.S. was founded by people who came here to worsip God the way they were convicted was appropriate and also to live by His Words. The motto for the Revolutionary War was, “No King But King Jesus”. It is a major part of the foundation of our country. There are still more people here than anywhere else in the world that call themselves Christians. 80% of us profess belief in God. Now why on earth would we prefer to elect secular atheists to represent us?

    We will always have wacos, as you call them, among us and everybody here gets their chance to speak. I don’t want to change a thing.

    Now if you want to catch a con man who is taking innocent people’s money, then I’m all for you. Until he is placed in prison however, I wish no gags to be placed upon him.

    We are neighbors but the U.S. is very different from Canada.

    Pam

    p.s. Does Farakan scare you?

  21. Dobson is great. I don’t understand why anyone doesn’t like him. He doesn’t seem to be very political. Same with Billy Graham.

    I’m surprised no one has mentioned Jessie Jackson. Like Robertson he also ran for president.

    I agree with you, Pam. I’ve heard they don’t allow certain sections of the Bible to be read out loud in the Canadian public anymore. I think it is acceptable for Christians to vote against those leaders and to warn each other about them.

  22. burningbush,

    Yes, I think it is illegal to read the parts of the Bible that speak against homosexuality. It is regarded as hate speach. I never want to see that happen in the U.S.

    I think James Dobson is a good man and I followed a lot of his advice in raising my children. My only critisism is that I think he got a lot of Christians off track in what is important for we Christians to be doing. We aren’t going to rebuild our culture and enjoy the more civilized environment like what I enjoyed as a child through politics. Though laws are legislated morality, you can’t make moral people through the passing of laws. The only way an immoral person will become moral is through a change of heart. Jesus changes hearts in the same way that He changed mine. When a heart changes a person changes. We should be evangelizing more and playing politics less.

    I’m hoping that the Republicans have disappointed us enough that we’ll get back to putting our hope where it really belongs. We need to pray for revival and put feet to those prayers by reaching out to people with the good news of Jesus Christ.:0)

    Pam

  23. Now why on earth would we prefer to elect secular atheists to represent us? (Pam)

    No matter who you elect they can only represent you in a secular way. As you your self have already argued, politicians are not there to do the work of the church. I feel I can argue this in a worldly sense as well, but would rather talk about how the issue pertains to Christians.

    All the talk about the pride the US has for their righteous founding fathers holds no weight with me, and I say that with the most respect. There was a time when the leaders of the country were considered honorable but that is not the case today. Yet I am instructed by the bible to honor those in government and I do. But all of what happens on the political stage is secular and as a non-secularist I don’t feel it is our game.

    I would much prefer my representatives to represent my beliefs (Pam)

    Well for sure! I totally agree, but I have a different idea of what would cause a secular government to want to represent the morals of the faith. I believe that the church would be better represented if we just represented ourselves better. If we did more local charity and community work and quit demanding that we have our “rights” protected the government would be less able to run amok not more.

    No matter what changes you wish to see, I think you will see a better result if you don’t use the cloak of religion to enact secular laws.

  24. Society started off this conversation by saying:

    “Some of my opinion comes from reading and conversing with Atheists and their critiques of the faith (and reading the news or watching fundie programs for proof) – and they say we ‘Christians’ don’t speak out against our own faith (against the fundies) – you know what they are right and the critique is valid. Sam Harris and Dawkins have called us out on that kind of stuff – and I agree with them – ‘oh no he agree’s with an atheist’s critique’ – in them is an outside source who sees what we do and they are scared of what they see. So why don’t we speak out?”

    Here is a guy who is speaking out.
    Last night Amy Goodman on Democracy Now interviewed Chris Hedges author of American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America. You can find the interview from my blog

  25. “What about all of the Dems that speak in black churches around election time? Are you as critical of them?” (Pam)

    Absolutely. The church is not set up to be the political campaign grounds (it’s not our purpose) – whether democratic, conservative, or independant.

    “I don’t want to take their voice away anymore than any other voice that I don’t agree with. This is America! Everyone gets their say!” (Pam)

    I don’t think I want to take their voice away either – just challenge their message(s) – which to me is simple enough. Maybe it is prophetic to speak out against a mis-representation of Jesus – is that probable?

    “The U.S. was founded by people who came here to worship God the way they were convicted was appropriate and also to live by His Words. The motto for the Revolutionary War was, “No King But King Jesus”. It is a major part of the foundation of our country.” (Pam)

    An early study of that early community will find out their ‘boxed version’ of God didn’t include both Indians or Black people – both of which early politics demon-ized as heathens, savages, or even non-human. These early politicans (as we are well aware) came from a variety of Christian backgrounds – were they right because they thought ‘God was on their side’? The Revolutionary war – did they manage to set up King Jesus as their political leader?

    John Schuck I actually listened to a 30 min interview on CBC with Chris Hedges and his critiques are right on the money – and he also warns of this same fear.

    But the real loop-hole (and always has been) that as (moderate) Christians we aren’t being attacked by these other more (fundie) Christians – they actually see us a front line defense for them – that silently supports their rhetoric and we should be based on the faith we claim. Fact is this has happening since people of faith slaughtered my people (Indians) and then subjugated them to their laws – in ways similar to facism (since faith and politics was mixed so fine like aged wine then).

    Indian peoples (and some Black communities) blame the church for their plight in life – and rightfully so – who benefited from the politics of slavery and stealing land? But you see how putting politics and faith close can become a sore issue for some – namely the minority groups that have been harmed (and still are) by faith/politic ideals of business, war, and culture?

    But as Christians, we see no good reason to speak against other more radical Christians? The same thing I see in Muslim communities, they almost refuse to speak out against a lot of the fundie ideals of their faith (ex:terrorism). We are acting as if we all are waving the same banner in the spirit of love, peace, and freedom – when in fact this is not the case whatsoever. Some people are spitting venom out their mouth in the name of God (or Jesus), and we aren’t going to say anything? Same thing happened way back in the good ole days and my people had to suffer a long plight for it – and so did black communities – just because people would not speak out or they adamantly believed their rhetoric – people got hurt and still hurt to these days – what makes me think in one iota that this isn’t going to happen again (or isn’t happening right now)?

  26. brotherken,

    That which has made faith in Christ so ineffectual is that of dividing spiritual from secular. Those who have been made spiritual in Christ should walk and act and have being in accordance with the Spirit. That does not mean we should inforce religion upon the irregligious through law. Jesus did not come to establish a new religion and neither should we put our trust in religion for religion is of man and not God. It means that we walk according to God’s Laws that are spiritual and only fulfillable by the power of the Spirit. It doesn’t mean that we should withdraw from the world either but only that we live according to the Spirit and not according to the world. I am not speaking according to national pride but according to the Spirit that is in me. Man can’t squelch that Spirit which is God no matter how he tries.

    I am blessed to live in a country who’s laws are underpinned by the Law of God. That is evident in our architecture and our history. Those secularists who seek to remove this underpinning do so to their own harm for by doing so they will rob themselves of their own liberty.

    Brotherken, be careful who you give your allegiance to.

    Pam

  27. You’ve painted the most hopeless picture I’ve heard in a long time. (Hineini)

    Hineini, Sorry, I just noticed this post on the last blog. My faith is that God is in control of this world and we are to do what we can when we can but not worry too much about having to be everything to everybody because I trust in God that no matter what I do his perfect plan will be complete. What is so hopeless about that? What I see that is hopeless in your understanding is that you put your hope and faith in humanity. Yes it is humanity that does the work only as enabled by God.

    Pam, I do not give my allegiance to any man. I agree with some and with some I don’t. I am not siding with secularism by saying that we should not be politically active. I am just agreeing with a growing number of people that think Christians should not be politically active and my heart has never been more at peace. I used to vigorously strive to influence others for Christ, now I just look for a way that I can be of service in a loving way and leave the rest up to God. Should someone want to know why I am content and excited about life, I will explain the gospel of Christ. It takes a firm belief in God to live this way.

    My daughter just got engaged to a young man that has had very little, if any, religious upbringing. I did what I could with my daughter but she is not saved as far as I know. They have been dating for 7 years and living together for almost 2 years. This young man is a great guy and even asked for my permission before proposing. Without a hint of hesitation I told him I would be proud to have him as a son-in-law. Believe me, I have prayed a lot about this. It is only my complete faith in God that allows me to rejoice with them at this time without getting preachy about what true love is.

    Sorry, a bit long-winded.

  28. brotherken,

    I’m not very interested in politics either but I’ve long grown past believing that other Christians should live by my convictions…that goes for my adult children, as well. I believe that God will eventually restore all things to Himself through Jesus Christ and I don’t need to fret over the details. I’m getting off target again…I’m not political but I’m not upset if other Christians are. We are to be in the world and not of it and Christians should be involved in every part of daily life while remaining separate from sin. I’m fine with Christians running for office and also forming lobbying groups as our representative government functions in this manner. It isn’t perfect but it works pretty well. I’m not for shutting any one up or out even if I don’t agree with them.

    I think perhaps, we’ve finally reached the end of this.:0)

    Pam

  29. No matter who you elect they can only represent you in a secular way.
    Ken, I’m surprised. That is a ridiculous statement!

    We should all go to see the Amazing Grace Movie this weekend.

    I would encourage Burning Bush on his statements. He has been spot on. If you dare to watch the trailers for this movie, note how the black man, upon revealing his branding, states “I no longer belong to God, but to a man.” Change that last word to “woman”, and you have the basis for allowing abortion. Slavery and abortion are the same evil. Sin always results in death, and if we are Christians, we must oppose sin.

  30. Thanks for the encouragment, Jim.

    Also a correction on something I said way up at the top: I meant to say, “I don’t see how anyone can deny we’ve made Iraq a much better place to live.”

  31. No matter who you elect they can only represent you in a secular way.(me)

    Ken, I’m surprised. That is a ridiculous statement! (JJ)

    Jim, What I mean is that politicians are only able to affect the secular government of this world. They are not elected to influence people for Christ and my position is that when they do try to preach our doctrine as a politician all they do is give the faith a bad name.

  32. Ken, I do believe a politician can be obedient to God. A pol who has a zero tolerance for the tragedy occurring in the Sudan or a determination to end abortion is in fact serving God through the imperfect institution of politics. Wilberforce was a great example of what a Christian can accomplish in the public square when he allows himself to be led by Christ.

    Blessings.

  33. Pingback: It’s Just Words… « Losing My Religion

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