Make Jesus Say What You Want/Need…

“To me, politics is inherently evil. As an extension, politicians are inherently evil. I am careful to not say that office holders are inherently evil or that participation in governmental affairs is inherently evil. Politics is an expression of sin.” (Steve)

“For me politics, and I mean Western politiks, is so in bed with corporations and a civil defense war machine – it is not just apparently evil – it’s also acting it out. For me, as a Christian person, I look at that and wonder – how can any Christian defend the war machine, never-mind the politiks of the rich?” (SVS)

“I would say that there is definitely a Christian stand on some issues. No one could ever convince me that Jesus would not be pro-life, but I’m amazed at how many try. Conservative Christians are also silent on why Jesus would give us permission to invade Iraq. Those are the two biggest disconnects that Christians betray in the public square.” (Jim)

“Perhaps Jesus is still weeping for all those Iraqi civilians lying in those mass graves filled before the Americans got there. You seem to have forgotten all about them. I’ll bet that Jesus hasn’t forgotten about them like you have. Yes, It does indeed look like politics is a necessary evil that will be around for a while. We have to keep guys like Society and Jim from helping Osama to blow up another American city. He already attacked two of them.” (Mark)

“Mark you got to take those lenses off man – the one’s that have you thinking an American war machine will ‘save the world’…get real. I guess we better start preaching ‘salvation is via war and not sacrifice’ but I have tough time finding a version of Jesus that will say that – anyone seen that version?” (SVS)

***Wow…talk about good banter in political issues and the war. I like Steve’s point and I agree with him and even Jim is clear about a war in Iraq not being too sanctified. But Mark…this came out of left-field for me. He actually thinks Jesus is an American citizen.

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13 thoughts on “Make Jesus Say What You Want/Need…

  1. “Perhaps Jesus is still weeping for all those Iraqi civilians lying in those mass graves filled before the Americans got there. You seem to have forgotten all about them.” (Mark)

    You also seem to have selective amnesia on this subject – that was not actually America’s reason for going there – it was to disarm Iraq of their WMD’s (which never existed).

    What I don’t tend to overlook here is the idea war will solve the idea of ‘death’ or ‘mass graves’. Have you taken a look at the amount of Iragi’s that have died because of this war? It’s staggering. In all honesty, this war has seen much more damage than what Saddam has done to his own country. Now you can think war was neccesary – but I have this odd feeling it wasn’t the appropraite action and not one I can even hint to seeing Jesus supporting anywhere in a gospel.

    “I’ll bet that Jesus hasn’t forgotten about them like you have.” (Mark)

    I haven’t forgotten about the Kurds – then again there was little I could do to rectify that scenario. I would say the war in Iraq has also done very little to rectify that scenario – and in the long run – may make it worse (ie: internal civil wars). Funny you should talk about Iraq and the Kurds – yet in Sudan we see mass slaughter and now in Congo – where’s your precious Christian American war-machine in those conflicts? For as much as you think that war is an answer – it sure seems to have selective targets – one’s with weapons usually (ie: North Korea and Iran seem to be on the ‘hit list’). I think your patriortism is blinding you from the reality of that war and the one’s to come after it.

    “We have to keep guys like Society and Jim from helping Osama to blow up another American city. He already attacked two of them.” (Mark)

    Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha…oh man…for a second there I thought you were serious about this quote.

    First off, Osama is not Iraqi…so why the Iraq conflict? Wasn’t it Afghanistan that Osama was a known dweller in? Even Pakistan may be backing him yet no war there? Nor in Saudi Arabia – Osama’s home country? So the war in the Middle East is a little shady to say the least since the ties to Osama in Iraq are weak.

    As for using 9-11 as a good reason to bomb whomever you think is an enemy is pure fallacy. What happened there was tragic – but to continue to use that incident to create wars upon false pretenses only adds more to the tragedy – it doesn’t clear it up.

    Mark you got to take those lenses off man – the one’s that have you thinking an American war machine will ‘save the world’…get real. I guess we better start preaching ‘salvation is via war and not sacrifice’ but I have tough time finding a version of Jesus that will say that – anyone seen that version?

  2. Salvation is through Christ alone, of course, certainly NOT from war.

    Loved the juxtapositioning of comments, society. I’d seen that comment about you, me and Osama – quite original.

    Mark wrote**Perhaps Jesus is still weeping for all those Iraqi civilians lying in those mass graves filled before the Americans got there.

    This would be true if Jesus existed in this realm only. Of course, if he existed in this realm only He would have kicked those Roman guards’ butts and made an escape. But He didn’t and He said He wouldn’t because His “kingdom was not of this world” (John 18:36). I’ll place my bet that Jesus is fetting those victims, all who would have Him, in Heaven.

    Good eye for the Iraq/Afghanistan confusion, also.

  3. “Salvation is through Christ alone, of course, certainly NOT from war” (Jim)

    If we take this stand and base it on a Christian concept – aren’t we bound to always take this stand about war? I agree with your statement – but if we start down the path of justifying war then at some point war must be justice? Isn’t salvation – the concept as we use in Christianity – about a sort of justice? In that scenario we see a Christ dying for people (sacrifice) and not making war on their behalves (as other Christ figures in that same time period did). I think this is some of the conundrum I see in this defense of the just war.

    “Loved the juxtapositioning of comments, society. I’d seen that comment about you, me and Osama – quite original.” (Jim)

    Frankly I found it rather funny – but insulting also…Mark literally lumped us in with Osama in that comment – which might be the greatest insult both of us have recieved in the blog world (ie: he mine as well of called us terrorist supporters). His comment was hugely flawed and shallow anyways – he basically assumes if you not ‘pro-war’ then you are ‘pro-terrorism’. I stated that nothing could be further from the truth and I base this on Christ’s example he left for us to follow – which was not a path of bloody vengeance/justice – unless we count Jesus’ sacrifice in the Passion?

  4. Wow, do I even dare step foot in this discussion? I wonder if Jesus is happy about all the poor Muslims we’re sending to hell because they don’t know the truth of the westernized, man-made tradition riddled thing we call “Christianity?” Or maybe Jesus wants us to blow everyone up that we think doesn’t agree with us? Just like he did, right? Or violently strike out against everyone that hurts us? Just like he did? Or … sorry, I slipped in a puddle of my own sarcasm. Anyway, SVS, keep up the good work, stirring up the unthinking!

  5. I always wonder why war is such a basic part of human behavior. I have a friend who says it is natures way of thinning out our population since nothing else (other than disease) prays upon us. It makes me laugh when she says this but maybe in some wierd way war is a part of God’s plan for human beings. My feelings about it are certainly complex. I hate it but I admire those who are brave enough to sacrifice their lives for us. I despise the stupid things our leaders do that put us in such situations but often after we are in that situation, I also can see no other way out. Also, it seems that the most common reaction to war is anger and we fight mini wars with one another over war and sometimes, those blow into full fledged attacks. So, a cliche’, what would Jesus do…truly, I think we have to start at making our own peace with God and learn to turn the other cheek. That is the spiritual approach and Jesus was a Spiritual man. Honestly, I can see no other way to end war than to stop fighting and also stop trying to control anyone else, even in trying to make them stop fighting. I don’t think Christianity is the answer, that is just another religion in a world zelous for religion. I do think Jesus is the answer, not in trying to force all to believe in Him, but in really believing in Him ourselves, enough so to behave as He would behave, at peace with God and man.

  6. Societyvs,
    Said: “…we see a Christ dying for people (sacrifice) and not making war on their behalves….” ——–Oh man, we ain’t seen nothing terribly in wars like the war to come with Jesus leading the charge.

    I know, I know, it is Jesus leading it. But to disassociate Jesus from war is to deny the end times as proclaimed in Revelation.

    I hear you and your holier than the rest of us war-mongers, but the who is the same yesterday, today, and forever sure did a lot of warring Himself. And I’ll be, He used people. War is hell, and for sure there are wars that never should have been fought. But to continue to call we who love God and try to honor Him just as much as you, well it is getting boring hearing you accuse us of war-mongering, and to accuse Huck of that when he hasn’t even voted on such a war, although Clinton did, is not honesty with the “facts.”

    And I am guessing, though I can never prove it, you would be just as war-like as me. Let me walk up unannounced and double slap one of your child and let’s see what you would do. You talk big, but I am guessing you would NOT tell her/him to turn the other cheek and let me do it again.

    Harsh talk from me? Yes. Angry, No. Believe you are the pacifist you talk like–No. American hater, Yes.
    fishon

  7. Let me guess. Another prophet? Good grief.

    Got news for you Fishon, God isn’t American and God isn’t Christian. If people around the world hate us perhaps it’s in large part due to too many in this country arrogantly assuming the opposite.

  8. “Oh man, we ain’t seen nothing terribly in wars like the war to come with Jesus leading the charge” (Fishon)

    Really…and I am gathering you get this from Revelations as a literal translation right? What is strangely odd about your idea is the one simple problem – that first community and it’s actual values. Now if they fought wars and defended themselves from the Romans (or others) then show me? As far as I can tell they gave their lives as ‘sacrifices’ also – and did not fight for some land/kingdom that was not their’s. I mean, if I use your logic and I am Stephen in Acts and I am about to be stoned to death for my faith – shouldn’t I be carrying a sword or pick up some rocks to kill all who wish my death?

    As for Jesus being the author fo some war – well I am not sure about that. But even so, if God decides to vanquish His foes by His very hand – that’s different than us vanquishing His foes for Him (not knowing the mind of God in depth and all). And who am I to step into the role of God anyways?

    “but the who is the same yesterday, today, and forever sure did a lot of warring Himself.” (fishon)

    Well actually if you read Jesus and the letters – apparently God did change or at least how we see God did. Top that off, Jesus never once mentions this idea about war as something he teaches us to also defend – it’s not there – it’s not in the letters’ – it’s not in Acts – but you want to hold Revelations as the ‘proof’? The very book that shouldn’t of even made it into the bible because we mess up the interpretation so awfully. But even if we go by Revelations – which I hate to do – we do find that idea of sacrifice as a standard in there for Christians also – Rev 6:9-10. I am not sure where we can truly defend the idea of war from – I think only via country/land/kingdom can do that.

    “to accuse Huck of that when he hasn’t even voted on such a war” (fishon)

    If you don’t like it – ask Huck to change his stance on the Iraq war, armoring Israel, and his 2nd amendment spiel. Beyond that – to change my opinion when nothing has changed in the scenario is to ask me to basically lie to myself. I think Huck is a war-mongerer based simply on his platform – and I offer a supplication to His God he proves me wrong.

    “you would be just as war-like as me” (fishon)

    I actually never said you or anyone (except Huck’s platform) is war-like – but if you believe you are – then your the one putting on that shoe. I know full well I am not because I know my life and 32 years of history. I actually, un-like the people I speak with on here a lot of times, grew up in ghetto/hood like conditions in extreme poverty, crime, abuse, dysfunction, poor housing, lack of jobs, violence, etc. When we talk about the ideas of war/extreme violence – well I have watched some of that unfold before my eyes.

    I should be violent – but the odd thing about seeing a lot of violence is that it effects you – namely if it is done to someone you love/cherish. From a young age that changed my views on this subject. I haven’t struck anyone in at least 16 years and always play peace-maker since that is where my faith has lead me – and I see it as the only viable solution in a violent world that actually changes the situation. More violence doesn’t make violence go away – it leads to someone’s death or injury. But I am well acquainted with the aspects of violence and I hate every bit of violence – or war. Fishon, I am sorry – there is nothing inherent in violence worth admonishing – but if you believe there is – show me.

    “Let me walk up unannounced and double slap one of your child and let’s see what you would do” (fishon)

    I would stop you and reprimand you. If you tried it again – I would stop you again. But I wouldn’t amp the situation up to a point where neither of us can control ou angers – that would be ridiculous to do.

    “Believe you are the pacifist you talk like–No. American hater, Yes.” (fishon)

    Almost sounds like a rap. As for questioning my pacifist stand – you may – but what you cannot do is tell me it is ‘false’ – that is not something you can determine unless you actually know me and see how I act in such scenarios. All I can do is tell you the truth and hope that you will believe it.

    As for American hater, not quite…I am simply calling to the carpet the American ideologies. I have nothing against anyone American but I see a certain zeal within American’s concerning their faith and patriotism – that gets inter-mingled like Rome and Christianity in 312. No certain aspects of American ideology are just horrible and I think it as accurate to address these things as Christians and no longer perpetrate the wrongs – ie: racism (ex: Jena 6 case). Not everything that is stamped American is good for our faith – some of it is detrimental to it. Not everything stamped American is good or needs to be defended or over-looked – sometimes there are idea within your country (and mine) that are plain wrong and cannot be reconciled with our faith.

    If I have to supply a list of the recent problems in the last 100 years in the America’s – I very well can – and when I say we use selective amnesia in these problems – I mean we don’t truly deal with them – we forget they existed. I watched a show on the Jewish people of American in the 1920’s – 1940’s – would you believe they were racially discriminated against for having another religion other than ours? It’s stuff like that I don’t easily forget – maybe we owe them our hand of compassion and need to make right the wrongs past generations made. One could also say this about the Native groups and African Americans also.

    I am all for justice, equality, and faith values and maybe this will lead me head on with American ideology – then so be it – I am not going to try and pretend that Jesus’ words line up with my country or yours on every topic – they don’t. The fact is, Jesus’ words read like ideas of change for society that if enacted will find oneself possibly banging head-on with leaders who disagree – because the kingdom of God is not a kingdom of this planet and cannot be defended like one.

  9. Societyvs,
    Interesting responses. No doubt you have carefully thought through your Christian and Worldview. You do make me think about my positions.

    I will get back to you tonight. Busy all day.
    MAKE IT a great day.
    fishon

  10. “Interesting responses. No doubt you have carefully thought through your Christian and Worldview. You do make me think about my positions” (fishon)

    Thanks fishon – I guess I want to address the current views of Jesus and things that get said in his name (in this case by Mark) and throw them back into the light for evaluation. Some things (doctrine/dogma/ideologies) reside on a bookshelf in the dark collecting dust and maybe the darkness is not a good thing in that case? I think we should be able to open those sacred traditions (books) and see if the light reveals something we didn’t see before. Thank God for conversation!

  11. I have nothing against anyone American but I see a certain zeal within American’s concerning their faith and patriotism – that gets inter-mingled like Rome and Christianity in 312.

    Excellent analogy, society. I think “paganism” is a better word than Rome but it means the same. Christianity became localized and absorbed the pagan customs, much like patriotism (also populism) has infected American Christianity.

    I think the most galling of this ugly alliance is in the attitude toward immigrants. I wrote a parody of that called Born American. Think Sean Hannity.

  12. Societyvs,
    I just wrote a very long reply to you and lost it. This is the second time I have done this. I now know what I did to cause it. Or maybe it was God deleting it. Which ever, I will not rewrite. I will just wait to debate, discuss, and dialogue with you on something new.

    I do enjoy these discussions. And thought I am ALWAYS right [hahaha], I do respect that a lowly Canuck can blog on an American invention, the internet, thanks to the Noble Peace prize winner Al Gore inventing it.
    MAKE IT a great tomorrow
    fishon

  13. Good point Jim and thanks fishon for the nod – I think discussion is the key to breaking into new areas of thought on issues and how things get viewed through our faith lenses.

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