“This is an excellent point. If we are told that to behave a certain way is to behave like God — to love and include everyone — then we know that God will behave in such a way, as well, and not be selective” (OSS)
“I actually use this as my base reasoning on thinking about God – that what God asks of us – He must also ask of Himself. If not, then God would be a hypocrite – asking of us things and not doing them Himself. I don’t believe God is a hypocrite so I have to think the other way – what God asks of us – He is more than willing to do (or it’s a part of His character).
For example, Jesus teaches us that ‘do not judge unless you want to be judged (back)’. The first 3 words are ‘do not judge’ – the highest standard…I think this is what God would want us to actually follow…but knowing this not to be possible…the concession is made concerning ‘how to judge’. It is to be fair and equitable – measure for measure – equally balanced and not biased. I tend to think – God is this way also. God must be fair and equitable to all then – no partiality and bias – it has to be His character for this kind of idea to be related so often.” (SVS)
I have been having this talk on a few blogs and I have realized this is a foundational standard for me when evaluating who God is and isn’t. I read the teachings and have for many years – and they get me pondering on ‘what is God’s character’? If the teachings hold any weight at all – then they must define the character of God (since these are teachings that derive from God).
For example, I always wondered why John in his letters call’s God ‘love’? That’s a strange idea when you think about it – this is John’s definition of the main characteristic of God – it wasn’t Ruler, Judge, Ominpotent, etc. But when break down Jesus’ core commandments that sum up everything – then pieces fall into place. God would have to be love if he asks us to love him and other as ourself as the core summation of the commandments. God is only asking something He also does.
And then that must go for all the rest of the teachings – they must help define the character of God – so we can be ‘godly’ or ‘copy God’. This is why I make claims that God has to be a certain way or it makes no sense at all – we cannot have a faith that is so illogical to have God say one thing and not live by it. Which happens in some theology I have found – God can say and do what the hell He wants and we cannot. I figure if this is God’s character – then why wouldn’t it be ours (if we want to be godly?)?
I think we can rest assured the character of God is found in His teachings – they were His revelation from Sinai onwards. I think we can build a faith in God that is both logical and makes sense with what we read – and it will change as we learn more – but God can become somewhat personable in this process. We start basing our standards in the character of God we percieve from the teachings.
If anything, God is balanced.
Loosing My Religion 
You don’t have to make a “concession” about it being impossible to not judge. You are just taking “judge not lest you be judged” out of context. Read the whole thing:
It says to judge when you are no longer a hypocrite (1 Corinthians 2:15). God likewise is judge of all the earth (Hebrews 12:23), and the saints will be with Him: “Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?” (1 Corinthians 6:2).
“This is an excellent point. If we are told that to behave a certain way is to behave like God — to love and include everyone — then we know that God will behave in such a way, as well, and not be selective” (OSS)
The living God, Jesus, also told us to slap our sandals together (an big insult in those days ans many parts of the world today as well) and leave.
How does that square with including everyone?
“It says to judge when you are no longer a hypocrite” (Joshua)
Well maybe it’s not a concession – but an elaboration on the orginal idea ‘do not judge unless you be judged’. Which – if we only took that sentence – would be simply asking us ‘not to judge since we do not like how it comes back onto us’. I mean, read the very first part of that whole teaching – that’s the gist of it.
Then part 2 seems to go into how to judge if we are going to do it – which is the plank and toothpick/speck idea. I tend to call this a ‘concession’ but fact is – we are going to judge anyways because that’s part of our nature – but if we judge it should be meaningful and require us working with the ‘other’. In the removal of the speck form the one person’s eye – we are physically helping to remove it (since the speck was an impediment to their vision) – and since we just took a ‘plank’ from our own – the way to do it for a speck seems quite easy.
But it don’t mean we can be callous about it – but loving – because we want to ‘treat others how we would like to be treated’ (namely when we took that huge plank out of our eye) – and mainly – help is appreciated in the process.
**but fact is – we are going to judge anyways because that’s part of our nature – but if we judge it should be meaningful and require us working with the ‘other’. **
The other question to ask is in terms of judging, how could you possibly reach a point at which you’re 100% certain you’re not being a hypocrite? What measure is used? Is there any way to remove the internal bias from one’s viewpoint?
Not only that, but another thing to consider is that after you’ve removed the plank from your eye, is judging your brother as big of a deal as it once was? Jesus refers to what’s in the eye as a “speck,” not a fellow plank. Perhaps after losing the yearning of self-righteousness, we realize that a judgement may not be called for, like we thought it once was. Does one’s desire to judge make the speck bigger than it actually is? Or maybe the plank in one’s eye is “blinding” the person towards how not serious the situation actually is.
The oldadam,
**The living God, Jesus, also told us to slap our sandals together (an big insult in those days ans many parts of the world today as well) and leave.**
Is this involving Luke 9:3-5? Except that’s in relation to shaking the dust off one’s feet if the person is not welcomed. It’s an indication that you are taking nothing from those who don’t welcome you.
Well, it’s pretty simple, because if you are living a lie (Rev. 22:15), i.e. hypocrisy, you are not saved.
Joshua,
God can forgive murder, but he can’t forgive hypocrisy?
God can and does forgive everything, except unbelief.
We do not know, or can we know who the real believers are (it’s impossible to tell by the way people act or behave).
We were told not to judge, because that right is reserved for God alone. He alone knows the heart.
Aside from judging a persons salvation, we are free to make judgements about people all day long…and we do. We shop here but not there. We associate with these people and not those people. We eat at this restaurant and not that one, etc.
Of course we judge! Just not someone’s salvation. It is as simple as that.
– Steve M.
theoldadam
“God can and does forgive everything, except unbelief”
Are you serious? In one breath you can say God can and does forgive everything but then say “except unbelief”………..Man thats almost saying God is Bi polar. Do you honestly believe your Creator would be that small in its thinking?
Jesus says it Himself in Mark 3:28 and again in Matthew 12 :31 Every sin is forgivable except that against the Holy Spirit (which is unbelief).
You and I may not like it, John, but that’s the way it is , unless you just want to go and make this stuff up as you go along.
When you get up there you can tell the Creator how small He was in His thinking.
Thanks John!
– Steve M.
theoldadam, you deny Jesus Christ. Fortunately, this sin is forgivable.
Goes does forgive — unto repentance. If you haven’t repented, you haven’t been forgiven. Haven’t been forgiven, you’re on your way to Hell. I’m not even going to bother quoting the Scripture to you because it is such a basic teaching of God, that true Christians are not — can not — be hypocrites. If you don’t understand the role of forgiveness and repentance you just need to read the Bible yourself. I can’t do your studying for you (2 Timothy 2:15).
And yes, Christians can and do judge people’s salvation (Matthew 7:15-20). We know false prophets by their fruits, and the same can be said of Christians or anyone else.
**Jesus says it Himself in Mark 3:28 and again in Matthew 12 :31 Every sin is forgivable except that against the Holy Spirit (which is unbelief).**
But it depends what the unbelief represents. Matthew 12 goes into more detail, but in both cases, Jesus has just healed someone, and the Pharisees claim that Jesus is working through the power of the devil. Jesus says that he casts out demons by the Spirit of God, and that the Pharisees are committing blasmphemy against God by attributing God’s power to Satan.
So it’s not just “unbelief.” It was specifically connected to the idea of Jesus healing by the power of Satan, and thus saying that the Holy Spirit was the work of Satan.
It’s not the same as saying “I don’t believe in God.” It’s comparable to saying that people are saved through the power of Satan or something. It’s that kind of lack of belief.
OSS,
(I believe) If they didn’t believe that Jesus was from God , they didn’t believe in (the true) God.
A Muslim, a Budhist, a Hindu, all believe in god. But do they believe in the One true and living God? And will Jesus go easy on them…or not? We don’t know.
Joshua,
Jesus said don’t judge lest you be judged. I guess you will refute that as well.
theoldadam, why do you ignore things? You ignored my first comment to this post, which points out what you are also ignoring, which is the context of Matthew 7:1. Context is key to understanding.
Joshua,
The trouble here is that none of us are capable of judging, because we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
No one os without a plank in thier eye, Joshua…so no one should judge.
Steve M.
Love the discussing by the way.
“You and I may not like it, John, but that’s the way it is , unless you just want to go and make this stuff up as you go along.”
Tell you what Steve Id rather make it up myself then have to listen to somebody else who makes it up. Afterall whether you want to believe all scripture is God breathed is your choice, I definately do not. I for sure see the hand of MAN written on the bulk of scripture. Thats why there are so many blatant contradictions in the bible.
You think Jesus is God then explain these 2 scriptures.
Jesus admits: “The father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)
“No one has ever seen God.” (John 1:18) Yet crowds of people saw Jesus
Theoldadam,
**If they didn’t believe that Jesus was from God , they didn’t believe in (the true) God.**
You don’t think there’s a big difference between lack of belief and attributing the work of God to Satan? Based on the text, I don’t think Jesus would’ve commented on the blasphamey if the Pharisees hadn’t specifically said that Jesus was healing through the power of Satan.
John,
The trinity is a mystery that no one can explain. Our rational minds want to nail everything to the floor. Well, that is impossible with God.
Jesus was God incarnate. Of course in this incarnation people could see God and live, otherwise God could not carry out His plan of salvation.
There are plenty of things in the Bible that do not compute.
A man walking on water (Jesus was fully man, also). A fish swallowing somebody and spitting him oput 3 days later…alive. The dead being raised. Blind people seeing.
Does any of that make sense? Of course not! Let’s throw the whole Bible out then.
I know there are contradictions in the Bible. So what? It’s still God’s Word to us concerning what He has done for us through His Son jesus.
That is the point that needs to just be said (for that is the gospel).
You don’t have to believe it. And you are certainly free to whip up your own version if you want to throw the Bible out. The Bible is a fallible book with an infallible message.
Thanks John!”D
– Steve M.
My happy face didn’t work
😀
OSS,
Not really. I believe that there is no gray area. There was another place where Jesus was talking to the Pharisees (not in conjunction with a healing story) where He told them “you are of your father the devil”.
There are the sheep and the goats. There is darkness and light. You are either in the Father’s will…or not. If one is not, they just don’t float in limbo, they belong to the devil.
So says scripture in many places. I’m pretty sure you remmber those passages so I won’t take the time to look each one up.
That’s my take on it, OSS. 😀
– Steve M.
So, how come if the writers of the Gospel were Jewish and Jesus was Jewish, didn’t they know the Jewish view of satan? Or did they, and it is merely Christian interpretations of the story that ignore Jewish teachings on this subject? The Jewish View of Satan, or a very short answer for those who don’t care to read a whole essay, What is the Jewish View on Satan?” One other , Does Judaism Believe in Satan
To say that someone does something by the power of satan is to merely say they have been deceived. I, too, think if Jesus did the things he did and taught the things that he taught so that people turned away from following Torah to worship him, it was because he was deceived by satan.
Deuteronomy 13:1-6. “….If there should stand up in your midst a prophet or a dreamer of a dream, and he will produce to you a sign or a wonder, and that sign or the wonder comes about, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us follow gods of others that you did not know and we shall worship them!’ do not hearken to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of a dream, for Adonai, your God, is testing you to know whether you love Adonai, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul……And that prophet and that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death, for he had spoken perversion against Adonai, your God….Who takes you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeems you from the house of slavery – to make you stray from the path on which Adonai, your God, has commanded you to go; and you shall destroy the evil from your midst. ”
There are several ways to look at any story. One approach is to say, again, ‘oh those bad Pharisees’ and leave it at that. Another approach it to say, ‘Why would they say this?’, and then do some research to find out if there was a reason for them saying this other than that they are just perpetually bad people out to get Jesus.
“Well, it’s pretty simple, because if you are living a lie (Rev. 22:15), i.e. hypocrisy, you are not saved.” (Joshua)
That’s so simple a sentence to be almost meaningless…’living a lie’…heck – that’s about everyone on the planet. If a girl comes up to you and asks ‘am I fat’ and you think she is – wht do you actually say? If a girl comes up and asks you if she is ‘pretty’ and you don’t think she is – what do you say? Most people lie in these cases for the sake of the woman asking…and humans do this practically every day. Now is that ‘living a lie’? Not really…it’s a matter of perspective.
But what is a ‘living a lie’?
“you deny Jesus Christ. Fortunately, this sin is forgivable” (Joshua)
Also Joshua, it is not your place to determine someone’s salvation level – and what you think they are denying or not living up to. I can tell you for a fact, having many convo’s with Steve, his faith is in God and the Christ and he is a rather sincere person about it. In which, he discusses with all of us here – open himself up…and you want to tear that down in some way? I say ‘shame on you’…he has done nothing immoral and wrong to anyone here.
Also you are making a judgment from the seat of Christ himself (the final judge) – when you claim you can judge someone’s salvation…now unless you actually know the mind of God or are the mind of God then you cannot make those claims with any certainty. As Paul says:
“So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12)
Leave Steve alone and let him work out his faith towards God – not towards you, me, or even Paul and his letters.
Societyvs,
Thanks for sticking up for me. I really appreciate it. That is very sweet and kind for you to do that. And I know that you would do it for anybody.
This stuff does not really bother me. I don’t take any of it personally. I mean, I only know all of you nice folks because of your blog.
I hope and pray that no one takes the things that I say personally. If it ever sounds like I am attacking someone personally, I hope you’ll let me have it!
These things of which we speak are ultimate issues, so people are bound to get a little excited about it. I certainly do. It’s pretty exciting stuff!
I really do believe it is a lot of fun to exchange our ideas. I think it helps to look at it that way, even if you’re not quite convinced!
Thanks again Societyvs and God bless.
You too, Joshua!
– Steve M.
who are we but dust and ashes? 😀
good stuff here. just letting you know i read all this.. some interesting points there.. esp. with Joshua kick’n it fundie.
if the base nature and characteristic of God is love, then what about natural disasters and what not? if all things happen are the will of God, and God is love, what’s up with tsunamies and the like? i have my own thoughts on this, but would like to poll the audience.
Luke,
I believe God lets everything happen. He works is will, in all the disasters and suffering and pain.
why?
I’m not sure.
– Steve
“This stuff does not really bother me. I don’t take any of it personally. I mean, I only know all of you nice folks because of your blog. I hope and pray that no one takes the things that I say personally. If it ever sounds like I am attacking someone personally, I hope you’ll let me have it!” (theoldadam)
Just so you know I appreciate your input on things (as I appreciate everybody else also). Its good to have many voices and perspectives in the conversations.
Your comment raises one of the difficulties of the blogging world.
For the most part, I believe that people are writing comments in such a manner that the comments are not meant to come across as aggressive, argumentative, or mean spirited, but as loving with a teaching aspect and passionately supporting their belief. However, it is sometimes difficult to convey those ideals of respect and humility in writing, so what seems as agressive language may not be agressive at all. I think it is because we do not have the benefit of tone of voice, body language, and face to face conversation to help us.
I think its also what makes interpretating the Bible so dynamic and emotionally charged. The words of the Bible tend to come off as being very agressive and “in your face”, when in reality maybe the inspired writer was just trying to teach in a loving and passionate manner, because he was genuinely concerned for his community.
thejust1,
Those were teriffic and constructive comments.
You are a good egg!
Thanks very much!
Hey Guys
I concur, I love to discuss, rarely if ever getted peeved at the discussions. Sometimes I think you guys are just too incredulous to believe though 😉
Luke
In this world of Duality, growth usually involves pain. We may not see the Love in some things because we have a limited perspective. I heard a good question recently. “Would the world be a better place if God got rid of all the cancer in it?”
What would your answer be………..for everyone.
Theoldadam,
**There was another place where Jesus was talking to the Pharisees (not in conjunction with a healing story) where He told them “you are of your father the devil”.**
What I’m getting stuck on here is the original claim that God can’t forgive unbelief, and that was attached to the Matthew/Mark quotes. Except those quotes attach the lack of forgiveness to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which is explained as attributed the work of God to the work of Satan. I do see a difference between saying, “Because you don’t believe in God, you’re unforgiven” as opposed to “Because you said this healing was the work of Satan, you’re unforgiven.”
Even with Jesus saying you are of your father the devil — he doesn’t say that their lack of belief is something that God can never forgive.
**There are the sheep and the goats. There is darkness and light. You are either in the Father’s will…or not.**
It’s not really this clear-cut, though. Pople as a whole have acted both ways, both as sheep and goats. No one acts like a sheep 100% of the time, but it’s rare for anyone to act like a goat 100% of the time. We’re a blending of both.
Perhaps the sheep/goat isn’t meant to seperate like that. Paul contrasts the old man and the new man occuring in the same “person.” Perhaps the sheep/goats can also represent the same person, with the “old man” as the goat sent away, and embracing the “new man.”
Perhaps the difference we’re having here is that you seem to equate belonging to God as defined by “belief.” I don’t. Again if we go back to the sheep/goats, what defined the “sheep” was not belief, but behavior. A child of God can be someone who loves one’s enemy, or is a peacemaker — even if that is an atheist.
I hold this view because it often seems that unless one makes a deliberate choice for God, one belongs to the devil by default. And if God is our creator who made us fearfully and wonderfully, then that default belonging makes no sense. It would entail God creating us belonging to the devil by default.
Luke,
**if all things happen are the will of God, and God is love, what’s up with tsunamies and the like? i have my own thoughts on this, but would like to poll the audience.**
I have a difficult time answering this question, much like if I were encountering a survivor of a natural disaster, I’d have a hard time telling that person “God is love.” As soon as we use a word to describe God, we’ve put limits on who God is. We have certain expectations of what that love will be, because of what the word “love” means. If we said that a parent loved us, we would know that the parent would do everything in his/her power to rescue the child from the natural disaster. Yet God, who has that power, lets the disaster occur.
And the really tricky part to answering this question is to take the person’s pain into account, and some answers I’ve seen (not here, in the past to questions like these) don’t. They kind of shove the pain away, in an almost “who are you to question God?” sort of way.
interpretating…. Yikes, I think that word needs interpretating 🙂 I meant to say interpreting.
“We may not see the Love in some things because we have a limited perspective.” (John T)
Yes I totally agree. Who knows, maybe a tsunami, hurricane, blizzard, etc.. is a natural phenomenon that the earth undergoes from time to time to clean itself. So that it can then produce more fruit.
BTW, I like the whole 1st minute of the 1st quarter analogy. I like the idea that there is more learning and wisdom to be gained after this life is over.
theoldadam, you said:
Can you prove the emphasized statement using Scripture? We have to give an account of every idle word we speak (Matthew 12:36). If you don’t have substantial Biblical evidence to prove this statement, you will be judged harshly for it (James 3:1).
You also said, “You don’t have to believe it. And you are certainly free to whip up your own version if you want to throw the Bible out. The Bible is a fallible book with an infallible message.” Can you explain precisely what you mean by these statements?
John T., you said:
Your own mind created the contradictions (Proverbs 3:5).
SocietyVs, you said:
Lying — just once — is a sin that needs to be repented of. In this case, the sin is not just lying but flattery (Jude 16). Plus, such a foolish girl who worries about her looks should be told the truth – that she’s a fool and needs to repent of worrying about her life (Matthew 6:25).
I don’t feel that his faith is in God, which is why I am exposing him to the light. Anyone who cares for his soul would do the same.
Jesus does say that we can know who the false believers are by their fruits, as I already quoted to you. His words stand. Now, there could be someone called a brother in the midst of your congregation who speaks the right things and does the right things but whose heart isn’t really into it, and indeed we do not have the mind of God to know who those people are. Yet, I think the Word of God teaches that if one’s heart is not into it, we will often find out (e.g. 1 Corinthians 5), though there is no solid guarantee as there is with false prophets/teachers.
Luke, you said:
I’ve never met a self-proclaimed fundamentalist who is on his way to heaven. Most people think “fundamentalist” means someone who interprets the Bible literally, but that’s only one of their fundamental principles.
If you look at the word itself, you will realize that it is actually referring to people who believe in adhering to a certain set of essential/fundamental doctrines. This can be seen in the book The Fundamentals. The fundamentals are basically just orthodox Protestant beliefs.
Written in that book and thus implied in the term fundamentalism is the idea that there are “non-essential” doctrines which Christians of different denominations can differ on. Fundamentalists tend to tolerate other fundamentalists because they adhere to those fundamental doctrines, regardless of their positions on those non-essentials.
The Bible does not teach that there are non-essentials. It teaches all the Word is essential (Matthew and Luke 4:4). It is damning heresy to choose orthodoxy over God (Colossians 2:8).
Just noticed this comment:
Everything that happens does so through God (Romans 11:36). God causes natural disasters. Whirlwinds and clouds are the dust of His feet (Nahum 1:3).
The world has “mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till there was no remedy.” 2 Chronicles 36:16. It deserves every outpouring of God’s wrath on the unrighteous men of this world (Romans 1:18).
The hand of our God is upon all them for good that seek him; but his power and his wrath is against all them that forsake him. Ezra 8:22.
Joshua
Man you sure Love that Scripture. Hope its making you a little more Loving. You know what Joshua, I am totally secure in the fact that I know nothing, but this one thing. Im ok and youre ok and so is everyone else in this world. Now with that said, I have no doubt we will all have some kind of consequence for our actions(we reap what we sow) and Im not so sure how long it will last. But with every fibre in my being I know it wont be forever and ever and ever and ever. If You need that to make sure you follow what you think GOD is telling you then go for it. But I will mention this, if you believe your GOD to be Loving ask yourself how it makes Logical sense that he would allow you to banish yourself for an Infinite time for something you did in a Finite time. It makes absolutely no LOGICAL sense. You can quote scripture until youre Blue in the face and I will never believe that. Now if you want to talk about how to make better community, Fire Away.
John T.
The best way to make good community is to love God and in so doing love your brother. The problem is that the days are dark ( 2 Timothy 3:1-5 ), are brothers are hard to come by ( Luke 18:8 ).
Revelation 22 verses 11 and 15 reveal that those in hell remain in rebellion against God after they die, so their sin is as infinite as their punishment.
Hey like I said, whatever works for you. May GOD have mercy on your Spirit, not in the end but during your life span on the earth.
John T.
So, how come if the writers of the Gospel were Jewish and Jesus was Jewish, didn’t they know the Jewish view of satan? Or did they, and it is merely Christian interpretations of the story that ignore Jewish teachings on this subject? The Jewish View of Satan, or a very short answer for those who don’t care to read a whole essay, What is the Jewish View on Satan?” One other , Does Judaism Believe in Satan
To say that someone does something by the power of satan is to merely say they have been deceived. I, too, think if Jesus did the things he did and taught the things that he taught so that people turned away from following Torah to worship him, it was because he was deceived by satan.
Deuteronomy 13:1-6. “….If there should stand up in your midst a prophet or a dreamer of a dream, and he will produce to you a sign or a wonder, and that sign or the wonder comes about, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us follow gods of others that you did not know and we shall worship them!’ do not hearken to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of a dream, for Adonai, your God, is testing you to know whether you love Adonai, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul……And that prophet and that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death, for he had spoken perversion against Adonai, your God….Who takes you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeems you from the house of slavery – to make you stray from the path on which Adonai, your God, has commanded you to go; and you shall destroy the evil from your midst. ”
There are several ways to look at any story. One approach is to say, again, ‘oh those bad Pharisees’ and leave it at that. Another approach it to say, ‘Why would they say this?’, and then do some research to find out if there was a reason for them saying this other than that they are just perpetually bad people out to get Jesus.
See comment #20 for the links – my best friend Yael – always great in the crunch!
Talk about Ironic
Lucifer is a name frequently given to Satan in Christian belief because of a particular interpretation of a passage in the Book of Isaiah. More specifically, it is supposed to have been Satan’s name before being cast out of heaven.
In Latin, the word “Lucifer”, meaning “Light-Bringer” (from lux, lucis, “light”, and ferre, “to bear, bring”), is a name for the “Morning Star” (the planet Venus in its dawn appearances)
Light Bringer…………now isnt that special lmao
Maybe that ‘s why St. Paul tells us to beware because the devil can come all dressed up as an angel of light.
Confused. SocietyVs you were addressing someone else correct? Or was that intended as a response to my comments? If so I don’t understand how it applies.
Hey heres one for you …..I bet you Satan is an agent of Reconciliation.
The Devil Himself as an agent of reconciliation…that would make a greatmade for t.v. movie…and I’m not kidding!
**To say that someone does something by the power of satan is to merely say they have been deceived. **
This would broaden the idea of unbelief, or even those willingly rebelling against God. If one is acting under a deception, one is usually unaware of the truth. Therefore, can the person be held accountable for the ignorance?
I would find the answer to this to be yes and no. Wrong actions still result from ignorance, and the consequences can’t be ignored. Yet the person’s ignorance is still taken into account, and correct, if possible.
On the other hand, if someone is deceived, fully aware of it, and acts upon that deception, are they still fully accountable? (I’m not even sure if one can still remain deceived while still aware of the deception. It’s like trying to willfully believe ants are 200 feet tall).
If the person accepts the deception after knowing it’s false, then wouldn’t we say the person isn’t acting logically, and thus is impared in some way?
OSS
That sounds awful familiar. Have you ever read the “inescapble love of god” by Thomas Talbott.
Did anyone stop to consider that the apparent contradictions in the Bible may not be in the Bible at all but in ourselves? God’s ways are higher than ours. What makes any of us think that we can grasp the mind of God in totality? I think it is wise when studying scripture to let what seems to contradict lay where it is for awhile and see if it doesn’t become clear later. This has often been my experience. Someone who is willing to throw out the Bible and make up something on their own simply because it doesn’t seem to make sense is someone who has more faith in themselves than in God. It is impossible to receive faith if one cannot accept the full authority of God.
Amen to every word Pam just said. You just gotta stop leaning on your own understanding (Proverbs 3:5).
Pam and Joshua
If that works for you, then by all means wait until it makes sense. I know my mind well enough to know when something just doesnt fit.
John T,
I read it and own it. 🙂 His book helped me see what difficulties I was having with some “traditional” viewpoints.
Pam,
**It is impossible to receive faith if one cannot accept the full authority of God.**
Where is the line drawn, though? For many, it’s like saying that 2+2=5 is not the mathematical principle’s problem, but ours. In any other circumstances, we have rules set up that allow us to know what is and is not logical, or a contradiction. Otherwise, we have no method to determine anything.
Even to say accepting the full authority of God. What does that mean? We first have to have an idea of who or what God is before we can accept that. Otherwise, anything goes. When you earlier described your encounter with the divine (either this post or an earlier one), didn’t you have some sort of groundwork to decipher it? If that same encounter told you to kill all your neighbors or your family (this is assuming that the situation would not be that your neighbors are all a future Hitler or something), you would say that the message did not come from God, because God wouldn’t order you to do that. You’re already relying on your own understanding, to some extent, because of the very definition of the word “God.” If we don’t have that definition, then the word “God” holds no validity, because it can mean someone who orders the death of innocent people. And yes, there are innocent people. Genocide victims dont deserve what happens to them. Children don’t deserve to be abused.
But if we can’t grasp the mind of God in totality, then how can we say the Bible does? It would still be written and filtered through the finite mind. It does seem to be two different ideas to say that on the one hand, we can’t grasp the mind of God fully, and so they are only apparently contradictions, and on the other hand, say that all contradictions will be resolved, and thus they will be grasped fully.
Besides, no one here is saying that we throw out the whole Bible and make something up. All of us, though we aren’t all agreeing, have pulled from the Bible to support our views. Why would we do that if we’ve thrown it out?
Pam,
I accept the full authority of God, and I also believe there are some contradictions in the Bible.
I believe that while the book is fallible (because men were involved), I believe that the message is in fallible, because God wills to get His point across that jesus came to forgive sinners (of whom I really am first).
Thanks Pam.
– Steve
Steve
I may sin but I am no sinner 😉
John T.
Steve, your position about God merely “getting His message across” through a fallible book is not only completely illogical, but an implicit admission to unbelief.
It is illogical because if God is powerful enough to get His message across about Jesus, then He is most certainly powerful enough to preserve the rest of it. Why would God preserve one and not the other? Why just the message and not the text itself? You need to explain yourself.
It is an implicit admission of unbelief because if you don’t believe in God’s Word, you don’t believe God Himself, Who is His Word (John 1:1).
God’s Word is not the book. God;s Word is Jesus Himself.
“In the begining was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God.”
How ridiculous does that sound? How ridiculous is that…period?!
God’s use as as His fallible tools, we certaintly are not perfect , yet God gets what He wants done through us, His earthen vessles. But God can’t get His message across in a book that has a few contradictiones or clerical errors?
And you say that I am illogical. That’s a good one.
OSS,
Faith doesn’t mean we give up thinking or questioning however, faith does require that we accept God for Who He says He is. The only autority for any of us is the Bible, all of it. There will always be parts of it that we don’t understand. Also, as we grow we can understand certain passages from many different angles. Scripture is spiritually discerned, that is what the Bible says of itself. It also says that it is not for private interpretation but scripture interprets scripture. It is possible to read a passage when one has not yet obtained an overview of the entire Bible and have it seem to contradict. However, one may read it again after a few years and suddenly, it falls into place and the contradiction disappears. Scripture is to be mined and if we just throw out what doesn’t make sense to us at one point in our spiritual journey then we’ve missed out on obtaining a deeper understanding of the mind of God. I don’t think we need to rely solely upon human logic and the only rules that I think apply are belief in Jesus and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The scripture teaches that it is the Holy Spirit Who draws us to Christ and it is He Who teaches us in the absense of Jesus in the flesh. When we believe and are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, we do have the mind of Christ within us and are enabled to discern what we read in the Bible spiritually. However, even Jesus does not know all that the Father knows as He taught that He doesn’t know the hour or day that He will return but only the Father knows. Some things are not for us to find out.
I believed in Jesus because the Holy Spirit opened my ears so that I could hear Who Jesus is. Before that moment, I really had no interest at all. I didn’t understand what I had done really and I tried to go back to my old life but I could not. I became alive to God when before, I was dead to Him. After Jesus, I couldn’t enjoy doing the things I did before because I began to think about what was pleasing or not pleasing to God. I had an insatiable hunger for the Bible because I wanted to know all that I could about Him. I had no religeous training and had only attended church three times in my entire life. I didn’t go to church for ten years after this experience and tried hard to quit believing for awhile. I couldn’t do it. I was forever changed.
Steve,
The Bible doesn’t say that it is infallible but it is the Word of God. I tend to shy away from theological phrases such as ‘infallible Word of God’ which is of human theology and definately not the Word of God. Men did write it but they were men inspired by the Holy Spirit acting as instruments of God. Any mistakes in scripture are those made by translators but even so, it is miraculous how intact the Bible is. I still fall on that side that it is human beings who are contradictions and the Bible perfect. I measure myself by what is written there. I do not measure the Bible by my own imperfection.
OSS,
Good points, OSS. The Bible doesn’t speak of itself in terms of fallible and infallible.
But pure reason tells us that it is not without contradiction. I think we need to define some terms. Inerrant means with out error…I think we agree on that point. Infallible means trustworthy, reliable, true.
If the Bible is without error, as some say, then which Bible is the correct one? The Catholics have one, the Protestants have one, and the Orthodox have one. Not to mention the myriad of differeing translations floating about.
The answer is they are all the Bible. They are all true because they point to Christ and make His death and resurrection the central theme of the book.
Thanks for listening!
– Steve
The Bible has a few contradictions…so what? It is still infallible. The story is true.
If an accident report was taken and the parties involved gave pretty much the same story, but one witness thought the driver had a blue hat on and another witness said the driver had a green hat on…so what? Their stories of what happened still jive.
The accident report has a contradiction but it is not germane to the story which matches up in almost all other respects so that it is deemed a reliable accounting of the accident.
John says that the Holy Spirit was given to the disciples in the Upper Room, while the Book of Acts says that the Holy Spirit was given to the disciples at Pentecost. Well, which is it? Who cares? The important thing is that the Holy Spirit was given to them.
There are different Bibles! The Catholics have one
Pam,
**Faith doesn’t mean we give up thinking or questioning however, faith does require that we accept God for Who He says He is. **
But my point here is that the acceptence hinges on our understanding of who/what God is. If the Holy Spirit had told you that Jesus was a rabbit, you would’ve concluded that the Holy Spirit was not, in fact, actually talking to you, because of your understanding, or definition, of God/Jesus. So on the one hand, we’re told to not rely on our understanding, and on the other hand, it’s our understanding that helps process the God we’re all encountering. It’s not just a matter of faith, it’s a matter of human logic.
What standard do you use to determine whether there is or is not a contradiction in the Bible?
**. It also says that it is not for private interpretation but scripture interprets scripture. **
But if this is in reference to 2 Peter 1:20-21, he was speaking of prophecy, not of every piece of information in the Tanakh itself.
**There will always be parts of it that we don’t understand. Also, as we grow we can understand certain passages from many different angles. **
But this is still two competing ideas. On the one hand, there will always be parts of it we don’t understand, and on the other hand, there are no contradictions. You can’t know that there aren’t contradictions if you can’t fully understand all the Bible.
**Scripture is spiritually discerned, that is what the Bible says of itself. It also says that it is not for private interpretation but scripture interprets scripture.**
But this is going, for me, too close to circular reasoning. The idea of believing that the Bible is [fill in the blank] because the Bible says [fill in the blank]. Such as we know that the Bible must be spiritual discerned because the Bible says that it must be spiritually discerned — which as a sidenote, may not include the New Testament as part of that statement, as there was no New Testament when Paul was writing his letters.
One thing that may help you understand the idea behind the contradictions — have you ever taken the Resurrection challenge? The idea behind that is to take all five accounts of the resurrection, those being the four Gospels and Paul’s information, and put them in logical and chronological order without having them contradict each other.
Steve,
**If the Bible is without error, as some say, then which Bible is the correct one? The Catholics have one, the Protestants have one, and the Orthodox have one. **
We could take this one step further, and just focus on the Tanakh. There are different uses of the Jewis Tanakh compared to the way the Christians use it. That includes how each religion treats Satan, how each religion treats Original sin, how each one looks at chapters such as Isaiah 7, or how each one would interpret the word “Lucifer.”
Which version is correct in that case? Which interpretation?
Exactly!
“It is an implicit admission of unbelief because if you don’t believe in God’s Word, you don’t believe God Himself, Who is His Word (John 1:1).” (Joshua)
“God’s Word is not the book. God;s Word is Jesus Himself.” (theoldadam)
I felt inspired by these comments to ask a somewhat philosophical question. Not in an effort to refute anything these two have said, but to delve a little deeper into the meaning of the passage being quoted. John’s gospel says the “word was God”, and the “word became flesh and dwelt among us” and it is pretty clear that he is writing about Jesus. I think we can all agree that this is what John is writing about.
Although, I believe that John wrote it in the manner he did for a specific reason, the word John uses is “Logos” which would have had deeper meaning for Greco-Roman philosophers.
So, since Jesus is the “word”, does this also mean that every word that Jesus speaks is the word of God?
If that is the case, then why does Jesus choose to quote from Jewish texts, when he doesn’t have to?
Good comments all round – from everyone – I miss a day or two and the comment box blows up – wow.
“So, since Jesus is the “word”, does this also mean that every word that Jesus speaks is the word of God? If that is the case, then why does Jesus choose to quote from Jewish texts, when he doesn’t have to?” (Just1)
Interesting thought I must say. What deos it mean to be the ‘word of God’ also – is that God or a creation of God? Just like how my words come from my creativity – then the word of God comes from God’s mind – but words do not make the one saying them – the person.
I would think the quotes are all about upholding the ‘words of God’ – and Jesus – maybe this is the meaning of the title – would not break those things since he respected God to the utmost. It’s the comparison I make back to Sinai and the Law – those are the ‘words of God’ and have always been understood to be by Judaic communities – and I think Jesus (as a Jewish person himself) would of held to those ideas also – namely with a title like this that John gives him.
The problem in Christianity is we think the NT is the word of God – and maybe it is – but we overlook the fact what else was considered the word of God – the Tanakh scriptures. I think this cause some major dissension within the Christian mind when you have to consider when Jesus us used in those gospels in unique ways – he is being sincere to the ‘words of God’ and the words he would of knew as the ‘words of God’ came from Sinai (first and foremost) and then from Prophets. So if we are going to respect Jesus as Messiah – then we have to respect the Tanakh as the ‘words of God’…this includes the law.
I do not know how to take John’s thing on Jesus being the ‘word of God’ – maybe that’s a closness thing – but it’s the only time the phrase is ever used of Jesus. I think there is something very true about it – maybe it is so – Jesus speaks the words of God. But for me, it would never annul the Mosaic law nor the prophets teachings – but add to them or even break them down (analyze them and live them)…which I have also called ‘fulfilling them’.
Great question though!
I recommend running a quick search in The Word before making such a statement.
Later in the paragraph the Word of God is called Lord of Lords and King of Kings. Yes, Jesus is the Word of God, and by quoting the Jewish Scriptures He proved they were the Word of God as well.
What you often see in Scripture is many equalities of the bodily Godhead (Colossians 2:9) that baffle the natural mind (1 Corinthians 2:14). Jesus is God, Love is God, the Holy Spirit is God, the Word of God is God, the Fear of God is God (Proverbs 13:13), the seven spirits of God are God (Zechariah 4), Jerusalem is God (Psalm 48:12-14), God is a Rock (Deuteronomy 32:4), God is a Man (Exodus 15:3), God is not a man (Numbers 23:19), God is Wisdom (1 Corinthians 1:24), Wisdom is a She (Proverbs 1:20), and God is Who He is (Exodus 3:14). Holy, holy, holy, holy, holy, holy, holy, holy, holy Lord God Almighty (Rev. 4:8 according to the Majority Text).
“I recommend running a quick search in The Word before making such a statement” (Joshua)
True, it was used again – but it’s only John’s writing we find it in – which is one author.
My quest – is why does John use the terminology ‘word of God’ about Jesus…I can see that Joshua thinks of it as only literal – and maybe their are aspects of that idea that are literal – after all John does go into following Jesus is basically summed up in following his teachings.
But if this is literal – Jesus as the word of God – then what does that mean? I think there also has to be a deeper meaning to the idea that John is comparing it to – maybe the edicts of the Roman Empire and how they are not ‘the words of God’…a comparison between Jesus and Caesar? Or maybe something about language was so essential to the Greco-Roman society that Jesus being the ‘words of God’ would give him the highest priority over philosophy of the day.
But being the word of God does not mean one is God – but obviously a close connection. The reason I state this, as I usually do, is because even in John 1 the writer seperates the 2 in vs 2 – “He was in the beginning with God”. If you read that sentence as straight forwardly as you can – it says ‘with God’ – showing a seperation between God and Jesus (acclaimed to be the Word).
So even if John uses a term like King of Kings and Lord of Lords – this is an esteemed position given to Jesus by God – an anointing he was given – anointed to that status. Of course, Lord here cannot mean Adonai since it cannot possibly read Adonai of Adonai’s – which literally would be One God of One God’s. Which I only point out since many people use that other David passage about ‘the lord said to my lord’ as only connotating Adonai – and there is one of those lords that can be seen that way – but not both…so we do have a previous example of lord meaning not just Adonai.
You say:
It is both. Read very plainly:
If you substitute the word Jesus for Word and the word Father for God, it becomes very simple: “In the beginning was Jesus Christ, and Jesus was with the Father, and Jesus was the Father.” So then, God was in the beginning with God. God begets Himself (John 3:16). You seem to be claiming that it only says “with God” showing the separation, but that fact is that it says both, that the Word was with God and yet was God Himself. God is of both plural and singular personhood (Genesis 1:26-27).
Only literal? Where did I say that? It is both literal and of a higher spiritual meaning. Everything you see in the universe is constructed of a frame. The frame’s material is the Word of God (Hebrews 11:3). God upholds the pillars of the earth upon which the world rests (1 Samuel 2:8; Job 9:6; Psalm 75:3) with the Word of His power (Hebrews 1:3).
Can the words in a certain book that I hold in my hands hold up the pillars of the earth? The book says that it does. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
Joshua,
I’m well aware of the “Fundamentals” as i used to be one. i have a ton of problems with those views as they are simple and illogical. but i’m not going to convince you of that, that’s a journey you’ll have to take on your own. Thinking that all things happening are God’s will is a lot like me punching SocietyVS in the face without prompting. SVS is confused and says “what’d you do that for?” and i say “you figure it out.”
thinking natural disasters and the such all spawn from god is not a god that i’m going to follow. best of luck with that. as for your scripture passages, that’s great support for your argument… but completely out of context from the meta-narratives presented in each book. i’ll refute those with the wisdom books, tobit, john, 1 Peter and James that (paraphrase) leave us with the image that “Not all things that happen come from God, but that doesn’t mean God isn’t within those events working for harmony and healing.” different books say different things. context is important, both literary and socio-political.
JOHN T “In this world of Duality, growth usually involves pain. We may not see the Love in some things because we have a limited perspective. I heard a good question recently. “Would the world be a better place if God got rid of all the cancer in it?”
What would your answer be………..for everyone.”
duality is funny.. it’s a black and white responce for a grey world. prostitution and divorce are always BAD are examples of this thinking. one doesn’t take into affect societal conditions (like afganistan and india for women for prostitution) nor context (like abusive relationships for divorce). dualism is for simply minded priviledged ppl who can afford to be so.
so on the cancer question… it’s individual cells exercising their free will to grow. the consquences of their actions, of course are not thought out (nor would they, cells only grow, not think). would the world be a better place if God took cancer out of the picture! yeah! but God would never do that as the natural order has been established. God is there to help the healing or come to terms with the finality. this is an extremely simplistic way for describing complex metaphysical and scientific realities, but it’s my elevator speech (as i must write a jonah bible study and finish the bulletin for church for this next sunday… all before the wife catches me slacking off on here reply’n to you all ;-)).
OSS “As soon as we use a word to describe God, we’ve put limits on who God is.”
well it’s like this… we can’t completely KNOW God… but yet we can get ASPECTS of God. like God is a He only when He’s not being a She or a Spirit or a t-rex (my personal fav.). God in some sence is ineffible, yet we can get glimpses into the character of God. i tackle this at http://toothface.blogspot.com/2008/06/created-reality.html
God is knowable, but not completely. so i tend to be in the middle in this, we can know God but not totally. kinda like my wife… i think i know her.. but she continually surprises me. so it’s a joy and a wonder that each day i get to work on this relationship. love is always a constant in this relationship… but sometimes we don’t like eachother. that’s the elevator way to describe my relationship with God. we struggle, we love, we seek to understand. (well i do, God does whatever cause God’s God, not me ;-D)
rant out! rawk!
Luke man…………….hope the studies are going well
“dualism is for simply minded priviledged ppl who can afford to be so.”
Dam not too much judging from this statement, mind you, maybe Im too priviledged to read it right.
“thinking natural disasters and the such all spawn from god is not a god that i’m going to follow.”
So who pretell made the the natural disasters? Would that be the “Un-natural God”
“would the world be a better place if God took cancer out of the picture! yeah!”
So what about all the miserable SOBs that get cancer and have a life altering moment and actually become Loving and caring and Joyful because of it. Would you have God take away their catalyst for growth?
One thing Im starting to realize in my short time on this earth is, sometimes the KISS formula works best.
Rawk on Bro. 😉
Luke
By the way my answer is No.
John T.
I’m going to need an exact verse reference for such a statement (“Not all things… healing”). A paraphrase will not do.
Also, the Bible demonstrates that Tobit and other Deuterocanonical books are not inspired, which is why God didn’t put them in the Bible (Romans 11:36). So quotes from those books won’t do either, because they contradict the Bible and are heretical.
And by “Bible,” I am of course not referring to the demonic Catholic Bible.
And by “Bible,” I am of course not referring to the demonic Catholic Bible. (Joshua)
Now, I’m not a big fan of the Roman Catholic church, but I don’t believe the version of the bible that they use is inspired by the devil. I am pretty sure that I would find Jesus in it if I looked. So I am guessing that this statement was made in ignorance because I’m fairly certain that you have never read the “demonic” catholic bible?
Demonic? Really?
OSS,
When I accepted Christ, I had no idea that it was the Holy Spirit Who brought me to that point. I don’t think I even knew about the Holy Spirit at that time. You know how some people say that they have head knowlege but no heart knowlege? Well, for me in the beginning, it was all heart and without any knowlege of the Bible or any Christian religion. It was all very foriegn to me. All I knew was that my life was a mess because of the way I was living and I needed to be saved. Jesus was introduced to me as the Savior and I accepted Him. Even my idea of what it meant to be saved from my sin was not right at the time. I expected all of my bad habits to be gone and God did deliver me from the worst of them but others remained and I struggled. That should have been enough to make me think it was not real but Jesus would not leave me. I was so confused about denominations that I tried to quit believing but I couldn’t. That’s why I know it isn’t what I have done but it is what God has done. Though for a long time I did consider Jesus a good choice that I made. Now I am more mature in Chirst and I see it differently.
Yes, I know that there are differences in the Gospel accounts. That makes them more genuine in my view. If they were all exactly the same then I would probably think they were fakes just as when witnesses in a court case all say exactly the same thing their testimony is generally viewed as rehersed.
Contradictions that come to my mind are the three main views that differ as to salvation: choice, predestination, universal. Most people pick one and excluded the other two but all Biblically based believers will have scripture that supports their position. If one is not totally myopic, it appears that the Bible contradicts itself but I don’t believe this is contradiction but rather different facets of truth regarding how people come to Christ. It has taken me over thirty years of study to gain this perspective.
When I say that scripture interprets scripture, I am speaking of that kind of overview. It can’t be gained by reading theology or commentary but only by mining the scripture itself. The Bible will only yield and rudimentary knowlege of itself if it is understood only one verse at a time. Especially, if those verses are used in toothpick fashion to hold up human ideas or and individual interpretation. Outside sources that are important to me for study are a concordance, a topical bible, and historical information and knowlege of Hebrew culture that can give real-time context to the script. I also seek to know what the Bible says exactly without imposed theological words and ideas. I know that I will be learning new things for as long as I continue to study.
My experience of God personally is just as important as my study. Continual prayer is the way in which I communicate with God and this is conversational rather than ritualistic or recited prayer. God speaks to me through scripture but also personally during prayer by the Holy Spirit,(I have not audibly heard the voice of God but I do experience impressions upon my spirit by His Spirit) through nature, and the events of my life. This is my relationship with Him at present and it is very rich in nature as opposed to when I first accepted Him into my life. However, I am no more saved than I was at that first instant of belief. I am closer to redemption which I believe is the outcome of this relationship called faith.
I did not prove God to myself and then decide to believe. God gifted me with faith, I repented of my sin and believed that Jesus was the remedy. I believed and then God proved Himself to me.
joshua,
you’re right.. forgive me. i had forgotten that the bible was written by God in English and fell from the sky all at once, cover to cover, in that exact order. and since the bible itself states that it’s inerrant, noncontradictory, and the infinite absolute truth, not to mention part of the trinity (Father, Son and Holy Scriptures), you must be right!
John T. the KISS is always the best method. people just have a hard time cope’n with the fact that the world is a little random.
oh.. and Joshua… if the catholics are demons.. well that’s crazy because there’s more of them then there are of us protestants. what bible would you have be read?
“Can the words in a certain book that I hold in my hands hold up the pillars of the earth?” (Joshua)
Then it also has the ability tear diwn the earth – one would need to consider themselves when quotiung them then – lest they tear down someone else’s world. I think it serves an honor to be able to read and interpret them.
I am not a Protestant (Colossians 2:8). Even so, the vast majority of mankind is doomed to hell (Matthew 7:13-14), so it is a good thing that the Catholics outnumber other religions. Proves they’re hellbound. Read a literal translation of the Bible without Apocrypha (which contains lies) such as Jay P. Green’s LITV.
“All Scripture is GIVEN by inspiration of God” (2 Timothy 3:16). It was given in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, though, not English.
Yes, totally demonic. Besides containing the lying Apocrypha, the Catholic Bible changes words and grammatical constructs to reflect their traditional (Colossians 2:8) doctrines. Compare Catholic translation of Matthew 16:19 (note that KJV translates this verse Catholic-style) with a literal translation that preserves Greek verb tenses and you will find that Catholics changed the grammar to reflect their view that Popes can make up whatever doctrine they want. The same is with much of the rest of their Bibles.
And, the real Bible says in 1 Timothy 4:1-3 that Catholics are departed from the faith and are influenced by deceiving doctrines of demons.
Joshua
You seem like a smart individual, answer me this. If God is going to win in the end, but most of his creation will be doomed to Hell. How do you fudge the math to make that a winning formula?
Jason
Did you get my email?
The story of mankind is that “God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had prepared beforehand to glory” (Romans 9:22-23). God is using His destruction of the wicked to exalt the righteous to glory. It is written:
It is always a victory when evil is destroyed, no matter how few the righteous are in number. Jesus Christ will destroy the heathen nations with a rod of iron:
The righteous ask God in Revelation 6:10, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?” God responds that they should rest yet a little longer (v.11), for vengeance is coming soon:
That is quite a victory.
Wow…………you have now made yourself abundantly clear. You remind me of lyrics of an Alice Cooper song.
“Ive got a babies brain and an old mans heart, took 18yrs to get this far”
Many of you here arrogantly reject Biblical teachings, yet nevertheless claim some sort of adherence to the Bible. In so doing you violate Jeremiah 9:23-24:
You glory in your wisdom, thinking your mind higher than God’s. How ludicrous it is to think you know more about God than God does! Where did you get this super-divine knowledge? Shall God bow down and worship you? You think you understand the Bible’s logical contradictions better than the God who purposely authored them that way?
I glory that I know God, who exercises lovingkindness in allowing us to have this conversation without just blowing us all up as we deserve. I glory that I know God, who tells me to judge you and how to do so. I glory that I know God, who gives me the righteousness of love to tell you what true righteousness is, not the lies you’ve been taught by Mother Culture (the god of this world, 2 Corinthians 4:4).
Joshua: so if Jesus saves… and the majority of the world is going to hell… then he’s a piss-poor savior by your own definition.
here’s my litmus test for determining a bible has a literal translation or not… so look at your Jay P. Green’s LITV and check out 1 Cor 6:9-11. If your copy translates “Homosexual” you better burn your bible. Homosexual is only 40 years old, so the literal translation (close as we can get from greek to english anyway) would be “effeminate”. i prefer to just go straight from the greek myself… but if you must use a translation… have at it.
and what’s wrong with the KJV? is that the “catholic bible” you speak of?
I deleted my last comment – it was too harsh (lol).
I can honestly say one thing though – Joshua may have a fine understanding of Christan cut n paste doctrine (orthodox) – taking scriptures from all over the place in the bible to make a doctrine – but that doesn’t transfer over to wisdom. Anyone can do that and say ‘scripture told me so’ – because they can find the same word here and there.
“I glory that I know God, who exercises lovingkindness in allowing us to have this conversation without just blowing us all up as we deserve” (Joshua)
This was the quote that got me thinking – is this how you view Jesus or God Josh? Because if it is true then why woud God waste His time trying to save us – not only are we not worthy of that ‘saving act’ but we also squander it as a human race? I would also say – no one can say God is love if your view is accurate about God – since this is obviously not so…the God you serve is mean and cares not (why should he care anyways – we deserve His worst, not His best). What is God’s motivation fo care?
Pam,
**I know that there are differences in the Gospel accounts. That makes them more genuine in my view.**
It goes beyond differences, it’s one of the reasons as to why some hold that there are contradictions in the Bible, because it’s very difficult to coherently “connect” all the resurrection accounts in logical and chronological order. It’s not like saying that the Gospel of Matthew says that Jesus wore a white robe, and the Gospel of Luke says that Jesus was wearing sandals. It’s more of a matter that people find that the two Gospels say that at the exact same moment, Jesus was wearing sandals and army boots, which they find to be a contradiction.
**Contradictions that come to my mind are the three main views that differ as to salvation: choice, predestination, universal.**
I may have missed this, but my question was what standard you use to determine whether there is a contradiction in the Bible itself. What “test” do you use, or what method would you embark on to prove/disprove if there’s a contradiction? In order for you to say that there are no contradictions, and it lies with us, how did you determine that?
**I did not prove God to myself and then decide to believe. God gifted me with faith, I repented of my sin and believed that Jesus was the remedy. I believed and then God proved Himself to me.**
But you knew enough at the time to realize that you weren’t accepting something evil, correct? There was some standard in you, some measure you used, to realize that this was a good thing? That’s what I meant by human logic — it’s what we all use, to some degree, even in spiritual impressions. We know which ones are good or bad. Even to say that believing Jesus was the remedy — didn’t God provide something that measured up to that belief, and thus confirming the belief? Wasn’t the belief the standard used?
But I do have another question, which is going to tangent off of this, so feel free to disregard. You seem to be going in the direction that we first must believe, and then the proof will follow. I base this on your last line, as well as we can’t accept God’s authority unless we first have faith.
Do we do this in any other regard? Do we tell children, or friends or anyone to first believe, and then the proof will follow? Or does the belief follow the proof because it’s established by the proof? For instance, if we told a child to believe that no one will ever harm him or her, and then the proof will follow, we have put that child in a dangerous position, because the child will probably encounter a bad person.
So the belief should really follow the proof, as the belief needs to be based on something, such as the proof.
amen SVS! preach on!
Luke, Steve, JB and the rest.
You know the one thing about finding out about the Love of God. Before that time when I was younger I could just beat the bejebeeeeeeeeesss out of the Fundies.OOps was I just too forthright 😉
john t you are a mess! and i love it!
OSS,
I don’t read the Bible looking for contradictions and that is probably why the differences in the accounts don’t stand out to me. You could point out what seems to you to contradict and I will be happy to try and see what you see. I have always had a desire to know who God is but I never had the desire to prove or disprove His existence. As a child, I that perhaps the sun was God as it is the center of our solar system. I was influenced by what is called new age thought now but was referred to as free-thinking back then. Psychadelics gave me a false spirituality as a teenager and I became very interested in this type of mysticism. However, I never doubted that there was a God. I just stumbled around a lot until Jesus came into my life. There have been things in the Bible that seemed to me to contradict but as I gained more knowledge of scripture, they no longer seemed to contradict. I named one example. There are things in the gospel accounts that are never taught and I wonder about them but the accounts don’t seem to contradict one another. The standard that I go by is Jesus Himself. I measure what I read in the Bible according to His character. Of course, I didn’t do this in the beginning. I had no standard. I responded out of my need. I really had nothing to lose. One day I thought belief in Jesus was hoaky and the next day, I did not. God had mercy upon me and gifted me with faith.
John 17 1-3 “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life; that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. –Jesus–
In this passage, Jesus speak of those that God has given Him. It does not say those who have chosen or who have proved to themselves that you exist and therefore believe. Though God gave Jesus authority over all people, all people do not choose to believe in Jesus.
John 17:6-9 “I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I pray for them, i am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
We all belong to God and God has chosen those whom He gives to Jesus. Our choice is not the directive choice but only secondary to the choice that God made before the foundation of the earth. We serve Him and we are at His beckon call. It is not the other way around.
No one can believe in Jesus unless the Father has given that person to Jesus. Faith does not come from ourselves at our own command. We are born into this world dead to God. For those of us in Christ, there was a moment in time when Jesus was revealed to us by the Holy Spirit and our dead spirits were quickened and we became alive to God. That quickening is the receiving of faith in Jesus Christ.
I would not give anyone a formula for what they must do in order to receive faith. If someone should ask me how to receive faith in Christ, I would tell them to pray that the Holy Spirit would draw them to Him. There really is nothing that one must do. The calling out of the elect is completely up to Him.
This does not apply to any other area of life but is the core of faith in Christ.
So….let me see if I have this straight. The evil Pharisees, who were ‘sons of the devil’ choose the books that appear in Tanakh, and the evil Catholics, who are demonic, choose the books that appear in the NT, yet God picked all the books, personally…. So, is God an evil Catholic Pharisee? A demon? Or did God just want to leave the task of transmitting God’s communication with us humans down through the ages to demonic rather than righteous people? Perhaps it amused God to mess around with us that way? I’m just curious…..
Ha ha Yael, and that’s why I love your logic in these scenario’s – they get me to laugh and they also get me to muse – why didn’t I think of that? Good questions though. I am like you – things are a lot more easier than people may think.
Thanks Luke and John T – I think something has to be said for candor, grace, and a faith that requires living the teachings as it’s fulfillment and not so much about doctrinal coding as it’s fulfillment. We love doctrine – but if a doctrine is inconsistent against the reality we are living – then either we are wrong or the doctrine is – and I say we test it all.
83 comments – I need to put up a new post (lol).
Pam,
** don’t read the Bible looking for contradictions and that is probably why the differences in the accounts don’t stand out to me.**
Understandable. 🙂 If you’d like to see what those who do see contradictions see, I would encourage you to try the Resurrection challenge (putting all five accounts in order, without leaving anything out) to get a feel for the “other side.” Mostly because if you are going to say that the contradiction lies not with the Bible but with ourselves, you should have an idea as to why people say there are contradictions.
**The standard that I go by is Jesus Himself. I measure what I read in the Bible according to His character.**
A lot of people wouldn’t find this acceptable, because to them, you’re measuing one aspect of the Bible against another. The main method of encountering that character, or putting that character into focus is through the Bible. So it would be like saying you measure what you read in the Bible by what you read in the Bible. I know that divine encounters also factor in here, but it sounds like the Bible gave you the way to decipher what that encounter was.
**Though God gave Jesus authority over all people, all people do not choose to believe in Jesus.**
Be careful with statements like this. To those who don’t believe in Jesus/God, it’s the same as you not believing that the sun is made of cheese. You don’t “choose” that, you simply believe that it’s not based on the evidence available.
**We are born into this world dead to God.**
I take it that you hold that God created everyone and everything? If so, how do you reconcile the idea that God creates us to be born into this world dead to Him? Even if the answer is original sin, we’re still left with the concept of God being the creator of all of us, and allowing us to be born in the world dead to Him.
However, I am having difficulty reconciling the idea of we can’t receive faith until we accept the full authority of God, and yet can’t have faith unless God gives it to us. Acceptence of God’s authority hinges on us, and yet that would be tied to close to faith for me.
OSS,
Your first four paragraphs are very good support for a statement I made in an earlier conversation between you and I as to not being able to debate anyone into faith or out of it. One either has faith or one does not. I enjoy discussing faith but I’ve no need to make another believe as I do and I’m not threatened by someone who doesn’t believe as I do. It isn’t my job. I can serve as a mouthpiece for God but the outcome is not up to me at all. I don’t worry at all about justifying myself to unbelievers or to people of other faiths. I respect the beliefs of others but have no need to reconcile my beliefs with the beliefs of others.
Adam and Eve were created and would have lived forever if they had not disobeyed God. They were created directly by God but the rest of us were born through procreation. Death was introduced after the sin of Eve and Adam as punishment for their disobedience. Their disobedience broke the close relationship they had with God and death limited the time they were able to live apart from Him under the power of their own choosing between good and evil. We are born under the shadow of death and we are also seperated from God and spiritually dead to Him. This is the human condition common to all of us. We are born bearing the image of the first Adam and are under the same curse that He received because of His sin. That is why Jesus taught that we need to be reborn in spirit just as He was born of procreation but also Fathered by the Holy Spirit. He is the second Adam and a prototype, so to speak, of what we who believe in Him will become when we are glorified as He was glorified.
The original sin that Eve commited was to desire God’s authority over her for herself. She did not want God to choose between good and evil for her but instead desired to be like God and choose for herself. She did not want God to have authority over her and she lost her close relationship with God as the consequence of her actions based upon this desire. When the relationship was severed, she and Adam, who she coaxed into making the same sinful choice, lost the blessing of eating from the Tree of Life. Death was introduced because they overthrew the authority of God over them. Salvation in Christ is a part of God’s plan for the restoration of the Creation to Himself. Before He began to call out those who would believe in Jesus and receive for themselves the eternal life that will in a future age be restored to all of Creation, He also chose the Jews to whom He gave the Law that would act as a tutor and also point out our need for Salvation. Not everyone is meant to be a Christian anymore than is everyone meant to be a Jew. Salvation in Christ benefits us individually but that is not the limit of benefit connected to the ekklesia. You don’t have to take my word for it. The purpose of our Salvation in Christ is outlined clearly by Paul in Romans 8-14.
I agree that we will never recognize God as the ultimate authority over us is we do not have faith. Again, that faith is not of ourselves but is a gift of God.
Have a great evening.
Pam
This statement pretty much ensures that you dont respect other peoples beliefs, and you not only justify your beliefs, you pretty much say you are Gods Mouthpiece.
“I can serve as a mouthpiece for God but the outcome is not up to me at all. I don’t worry at all about justifying myself to unbelievers or to people of other faiths. I respect the beliefs of others but have no need to reconcile my beliefs with the beliefs of others.”
Pam,
The debate on my end started with the ideas of contradiction. As I stated, if you’re going to say that you find no contradictions in the Bible, and ask that we consider ourselves to have the contradictions, then I think you should understand where we are coming from, in terms of the contradictions. So it is a matter of justification, in a way, because you will come across as analyzing the other viewpoint without venturing through the viewpoint. Which is exactly why I asked you how you would go about determining if there is a contradiction — I realize you don’t actively seek one, and I understand why, since you’re comfortable in your faith. But if you’re going to offer people an insight into how they find contradictions, then isn’t it only fair that you offer how you would determine what is or is not a contradiction? Such as the sandals/army boots idea I offered in terms of Jesus?
I do agree that one either has faith or one doesn’t, but if it’s that simple, then it also can’t be an option of choosing to reject Jesus. How much of a choice is it, if you either have faith or you don’t?
** We are born under the shadow of death and we are also seperated from God and spiritually dead to Him. This is the human condition common to all of us. We are born bearing the image of the first Adam and are under the same curse that He received because of His sin. **
Then how much of a hand does God play in our creation? If He is called our Creator, and yet we’re born seperated from Him, then how active is He? How much of our first birth is done in God’s image and likeness? Especially if we’re also to be fearfully and wonderfully made?
Pam,
To clarify — I know you said that what appears to be a contradiction is choice, predestination, and universalism, and upon further study, you are able to resolve that contradiction. However, I don’t see a method in there, that I could use to follow your footsteps in terms of “Here’s what would be a contradiction, and here’s how to harmonize them.”
Luke: Joshua: so if Jesus saves… and the majority of the world is going to hell… then he’s a piss-poor savior by your own definition.
Indeed. *nods*
here’s my litmus test for determining a bible has a literal translation or not… so look at your Jay P. Green’s LITV and check out 1 Cor 6:9-11. If your copy translates “Homosexual” you better burn your bible. Homosexual is only 40 years old, so the literal translation (close as we can get from greek to english anyway) would be “effeminate”.
From what I’ve read, the term “homosexual” first appeared in an English translation of the Bible — the Amplified — in the late 1950s. (The word itself dates back to the late 1800s.)
Yael: So….let me see if I have this straight. The evil Pharisees, who were ’sons of the devil’ choose the books that appear in Tanakh, and the evil Catholics, who are demonic, choose the books that appear in the NT, yet God picked all the books, personally…. So, is God an evil Catholic Pharisee? A demon? Or did God just want to leave the task of transmitting God’s communication with us humans down through the ages to demonic rather than righteous people? Perhaps it amused God to mess around with us that way? I’m just curious…..
PWNED! ;D
The KJV is fine, just contains errors like any other translation. Read it with a concordance or else it could very well deceive you, especially as its language grows more and more outdated.
It’s silly to have a litmus test for a Bible translation, because every translation I know of contains errors or mild inaccuracies, including the LITV in the verse reference you provided. I only recommend translations based on overall accuracy, how accurate it is relative to other translations. I additionally use the NKJV, KJV, and NAS, all of which are errant but useful.
Also, the most literal word you call effeminate but translated today as “homosexual” is actually soft (G3120). Soft people go to hell. However, it is also true that homosexuals go to hell (Leviticus 18:22); and although not all soft people are homosexual, and not all homosexuals are soft, it nevertheless really doesn’t make a difference because both groups are hellbound anyway. I would certainly prefer if that verse were translated more accuracy, but I know what it says in the Greek.
Blasphemy.
I have only been studying the Bible for a bit longer than a year. I don’t know it very well. Yet, if I know it better than you or the other guys here, that’s certainly telling me something about how you spend your time versus how I spend mine. I just got back from watching a movie and playing with my friend, and yet I manage to find time to discover the fear of the Lord? What are you wasting your time doing? You shouldn’t even be talking with me here. Crack open your Bible and start working out your salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. “Cut n’ Paste doctrine” certainly is not tantamount to wisdom — the wisdom writers didn’t have a Bible to tell them what to say. But if you want to know God, it certainly helps to know His Word. And it certainly does NOT help to make things up about God and then hold fast to these doctrines, so much so that you in so doing reject the Bible’s teaching on it.
Also, it is not so easy to just make up your own doctrines using any random slew of Bible quotes. Sure, you can say something that is incorrect based on a skillful stringing together of quotes, but no one so far has managed to prove that I’ve done that. And that’s why you gotta know the Bible. You have to know it better than the devil himself if you want to contend earnestly for the faith (Jude 3) and cast down arguments that exalt themselves against the knowledge of God (2 Corinthians 10:3-5).
I am your servant (Mark 10:44), but in accordance with 2 Timothy 2:23, all I can say to you regarding these elementary questions is read the Bible, because beyond a few verses it seems like you really haven’t.
The only thing I will say is that you are limiting God’s personality to one dimension. Remember that we were created in His image, and think about how many emotions we have. Our emotions are there because God holds them as well. To classify Him merely as “mean” excluding all other feelings or “loving” excluding all other feelings is to diminish His humanity.
YES!
NO!
Evil men chose much of our Biblical canon. They chose correctly because God is really the one in control (Proverbs 16:9). It’s that simple. You deny your own Scriptures, and you are a filthy hypocrite for doing so and putting on such a parade about being so “religious” and becoming a rabbi and crap like that.
OSS,
I guess the only method that I could point you toward is my understanding of what scripture is and how the study of it should be approached. The Bible is a history of God’s people, past, present, and future. History in this instance is actually, His Story as Christ is central to understanding God’s plan for His people. The OT is the History of the Jews only. It relates to Gentile Christians only as we are grafted into the children of God, or the household of faith, through faith in Jesus. Jewish Christians are fulfilled Jews. I believe that this history is broken down into dispensations, ages, periods of time in which certain aspects of God are manifest and the various portions of His plan are carried out.
Ephesians 1:9-11 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, THAT IN THE DIPENSATION OF THE FULLNESS OF TIME HE MIGHT GATHER TOGETHER IN ONE ALL THINGS IN CHRIST, BOTH WHICH ARE IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH IN HIM. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, BEING PREDESTINED ACCORDING TO THE PURPOSE OF HIM WHO WORKS ALL THINGS ACCORDING TO THE COUNSEL OF HIS WILL,
Also please read Romans 11:11-36 to read how God is working through Jews and Christians for the good of all. I would also like you to read 1 Corinthians 15 for another overview of God’s plan.
I believe that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to us in His absense and that He guides us into all truth. The Bible also teaches that the scriptures are spiritually discerned and I rely upon the Holy Spirit to give me His insight into what the verses are saying. I also believe as I stated before that scripture interprets scripture and that concepts are built one verse upon another in such a way as to build in the believer’s understanding context that goes beyond that of a verse within a portion of scripture to portions of scripture in the context of the entire Bible. This gives the Bible student an overveiw of scripture that can’t be explained by one or two verses as a proof-text. This is the way in which I was able to reconcile the three main views on salvation. If I had chosen only the one that made the most sense to me (or the one that I was taught accepting only the verses that supported that view and ignoring those that seem in oposition) in the way that I would interpret it, I would never have gained insight into how God is working the three aspects together to suit His purpose and serve our need, that being the redemption of man and the retreval of His Creation from sin and death. I would probably be like many Christians today and be blind to all but the importance of my own Salvation and Redemption. I would not be as teachable if I relied upon my authority to interpret correctly. I am much more teachable when I submit to God’s authority and also submit to the scriptures as being my authority upon faith. I have not harmonized anything rather they are harmonized in scripture and their harmony has been revealed to me through study and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I use a topical Bible for study so that I can compare all the verses related to that one topic. I study how certain Hebrew and Greek words are used throughout scripture and the various English words used in their place, I study Hebrew thought and culture and I also have discussions online with Jews so that my understanding of that culture is not so plasitc (hopefully), I also use a concordance, and the many resources that we now enjoy on the Internet.
My method is humility before God, reliance upon the Holy Spirit, dilligence in study, and patience as I wait for God to reveal more of Himself to me through Christ, and reliance upon scripture as the authority on faith rather than other men and women.
I’m not a theologian. I’m just a believer. I have not made my faith into a science. :0) It isn’t necessary because Jesus is accessible to all of us. He is not reached through high intellect even though there is plenty in Him to give fodder to any intellectual believer. Sadly though, there are many of high intellect who can’t get past their own intellect so that they can open their heart to God and receive the gift of faith in His Son. If my IQ were high and a stumbling block, I would trade my high IQ in an instant for faith. I can’t imagine living in a world without God.
I think I ran on a bit…sorry. I’m going to say good night but I have enjoyed this discussion. There are not many who are brave enough to ask an old woman what she thinks and ALSO why she thinks it. ;-}
Shelly, if I am your enemy as that comment reveals, then you might consider taking heed to Matthew 5:43-44 instead of mocking me. Heathens mock (Psalm 35:16), and so does God when your fear cometh (Proverbs 1:26).
Now theres the Piss and Vinegar I expect from an 18yr old lmao
Evil men chose much of our Biblical canon. They chose correctly because God is really the one in control (Proverbs 16:9). It’s that simple. You deny your own Scriptures, and you are a filthy hypocrite for doing so and putting on such a parade about being so “religious” and becoming a rabbi and crap like that.
Since you can’t even READ my sacred texts, your claims to be an authority on them must be taken with a grain of salt.
Your father must have ‘spared the rod’ to produce such an arrogant little brat. Re-read my comment. I merely asked questions based on your claims. You don’t like someone pointing out the foolishness of your logic? Oh well. Such is life.
You are acting like a small child having a temper tantrum only you justify it in the name of God. Tsk. Tsk. Taking God’s name in vain is a big no-no.
Signed,
The filthy hypocrite who is going to make one fantastic rabbi! 8)
Joshua,
You are bold for one who has only been studying for a year. Young men who have recently overcome the evil one tend to be bold.:0) I was very much a crusader when I was young in the Lord and dear friend once told me that God does not need me to fight for Him. She is right. It is God Who defends us for “If God is with us, who can stand against us?” and Jesus admonishes us to ‘overcome evil with good’. Do not let your good be spoken evil of and always contend for the truth in love for God is Love and there is no power greater in all the universe.
With study helps, I can read them, and I do not claim to be an authority on them.
Look at your comment. It is not a set of sincere questions where you are honestly trying to deduce my thinking. Every question was asked rhetorically — i.e. whatever answer I gave you was irrelevant because you just don’t agree — and you did so in a slight tone of mockery. And yes, my father sinfully spared the rod because he is an unbeliever, and I told him so.
Calling me a child is not getting you anywhere if you are clearly in the wrong and unable to prove otherwise. I have shown you and many others here how brittle and meaningless their faiths are, and now the burden of proof is on you to show otherwise if you wish to be viewed differently.
Pam,
Are you saying I am doing wrong?
God does not require us, necessarily, to fight this spiritual war (not everyone is a minister, there are just plain believers), but it is quite clear that it is not wrong and we are aggressively encouraged to do so (2 Corinthians 10:3-5; Jude 3).
Joshua
“And yes, my father sinfully spared the rod because he is an unbeliever, and I told him so.”
Looks like when you were reading the 10 commandments you missed this one!
“Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you”
By the way its number 5 🙂
Are you kidding? In no way did I break that commandment when I told my parents that their religion is disgusting. I do whatever they tell me to do. I am even going to college completely against my will because they wish me to.
You also seem to not be familiar with Matthew 10:34-36:
Joshua,
You got after OSS for using extra materials to help her understand the Bible yet now you say you use study aids in your reading?
You have shown me nothing other than the truth of the teachings of our sages:
A single coin in a crock makes much noise, but if the crock is full of coins, it is silent. (Baba Metzia, 85)
Joshua,
We can’t help but be in a spiritual war but we don’t contend with flesh and blood and if we are to have victory, we can’t fight while relying upon our own strength. I’m not saying any of this to point you as being wrong. I’m trying to say what I believe will edify you, some tips that I have learned along the way, the very hard way. :0)
“We can’t help but be in a spiritual war but we don’t contend with flesh and blood and if we are to have victory,”
This is one of my issues with Fundamentalist Christians, they actually think their in a War. Like God made a mistake and we need to fight the battle for Him/Her/It. So much for the divine entity being Omnipotent. Why cant we just trust that we are o.k. in this world, even with the negative aspect. After all if God created everything, it created the Sheit also.
No, you don’t get it. Any kind of study aid can deceive you of course, but less so with lexicons and concordances. I don’t use things that were written intentionally to deceive, like study Bibles.
John T., you’re just a clown, a scoffer, a doubter. You are God’s enemy, which is why there is a spiritual war to be fought. You don’t listen to any reasoning, any evidence, any wholesome words of wisdom, certainly not the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, because you are naive and arrogant and don’t like the idea of reality being the slightest bit harsher than you would like. There’s really nothing more to say to you — you won’t hear.
” have only been studying the Bible for a bit longer than a year.” Joshua.
oh well then… that explains everything!
Joshua
“John T., you’re just a clown, a scoffer, a doubter.”
Finally some words of wisdom. Dam proud of those titles too. My Mama taught me that “nobody can walk on me unless I lie down” And fortunately for me I wont lie down for your religious/pious drivel. But hey I love the Tit for Tat.
You don’t get it either, Luke. The point of my saying that was to show how thoroughly unproductive you have been. If I can know the Bible as well as I do in a year, then what the hell are you wasting your time with every day?
I don’t know how old you are, but you’ve likely had far more time to study the Bible, and instead it seems you spent your whole life staring at about five verses. Get to work.
John T.,
If we are of the world and share its values then there is no spiritual war. When one chooses to live a life that is godly in Christ, we are naturally at odds with the popular culture. If you enjoy the popular culture and all that it offers, have at it. I don’t enjoy it all that much and I’m not at home here. If you enjoy this present world then you have your reward now and I wait for one that will come later. I’m into delayed gratification.:0)
I’m curious as to how you define a fundamentalist Christian. What is it about a person that invites you to stick the negative label of ‘fundi’ on them?
” If I can know the Bible as well as I do in a year, then what the hell are you wasting your time with every day?” (Joshua)
Joshua this is one of the reasons the words you actually say – have no meaning to anyone you speak them to – they contain no authority and no power – because they are said in a way that is demeaning to the hearer. This claim you make to me, Luke, John, Yael, and pretty much anyone else that banters with you.
Fact is Josh, I have studied the bible for 14 years – and you come along with one year of study – to tell me – ‘get to studying’. That means for 14 years I have not been studying – as hard as you have been in the one year you have committed to studying. Tell me, why should I respect your study? You do not respect anyone else’s? If this is the case then you recieve the error of your words in full ‘judge not unless you also be judged’…and many of us in our minds did not want to judge – but the things you say have ‘cut’ you off from us truly valuing your input. I think we want to – but then again – we are not treated as equals…and that’s a not a place to put anyone if you respect them.
Joshua, no one has to reprove your teachings and doctrinal coding – because you do a great job of making that null and void…I can’t think of anyone here that would actually follow your system of faith – it’s young and brash – when you are dealing with people who have been where you are right now…how can speak past people’s experiences in life when they are elders to you?
You reprove everything by a biblical passage but that does not mean you actually have this faith encapsulated. You have some head knowledge – this is true – but you tend to think that what someone believes is more important than what they do with their beliefs. I am not sure you quite understand the importance of your actions yet.
I do not respect the things you have to say because you do not respect me – and I have seen you do not take responsibility for the things you actually do say – and to me – that’s a denial of what this faith is about. You apologize to none all the while you are proud about judging others – you demean another’s faith to make yours look better – you quote scripture and then act as if you were the first one to arrive at your conclusions – and your pride is not hidden well. You hold the mysteries of God and act as if others do not…some might say…you stand in the way of letting others into the fulness of the faith.
I don’t think you understand the 2 commandments yet either – about loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself – I do not think you can see the forest for the trees as of yet. Quote them all you want – that’s not why they were given – these are things you live and learn from. But here’s a hint about them – they are tied together almost as if they make one commandment. To love God is to love your neighbor – and that’s what you need to start doing here…because this is not love the things you say to the others here – demeaning someone is not loving…sorry – and neither is calling names.
Do what is best for your soul – and if my words are not – then continue to justify your behavior for the things you say to others. I speak for myself – I will not deny my faith in God – but I will deny the authority of your words.
you got it Joshua.. that’s why i went to seminary and that’s why i can read the bible in it’s original languages. but thanks for the tips. i guess i inherently miss the point of the bible. i just keep forgetting that judgement is the fundamental core of the bible. thanks for the reminder! now excuse me while i run out and tell ppl that they’re going to hell, just like Jesus did!
SVS… here’s the core rule that i’ve learned throughout my years of religious life and seminary training… never argue with a fundamentalist. they have all the duelist answers figured out. they don’t seem to get that “words are mist posing
as rocks on the distant and future horizon.” (from http://toothface.blogspot.com/2008/06/objective-walk.html)
plus arguing with a judgemental dude who names his blog “judge all things” yet fails to realize that “judges” are going to hell (Romans 2:1) which he states in his own blog “Judge All Things” http://judgeallthings.wordpress.com/2008/05/03/who-goes-to-hell/). goes back to whether you’re using scripture for transformative good for all society or if you’re using it for a mirror of your own prejudice. if you disagree on this, it’s no use speaking any more cause you’re not talking about the same thing.
rawk!
This week’s parashah is a fascinating one, as always: Korach (Numbers 16-18).
Korach is a young upstart who has no respect for all that had come before him. “Who are you to exalt yourselves over the congregation of Adonai? Didn’t God say that ALL the people are holy?” Moses told him to come out the next day and God would let everyone know ‘the one who is God’s own and the holy one.’ Moses tries to convince Korach to be happy with the place God has given him, but no, Korach wants to have it all!
The next day Korach and his pals all show up at the Tent of Meeting ready to prove their point. God is furious and wants to destroy the whole lot of them, except for Moses and Aaron. Moses and Aaron pleaded with God on behalf of the people that God not destroy them and God relented. All the people backed away from Korach, Abiram and Dathan, the earth opened up and they were gone. Poof. Just like that. And then fire came down and burned up all the guys who thought they were good enough to offer incense as well as any priest.
What can we learn from this?
Anyone can quote what God says. Understanding the wisdom behind God’s words is something else entirely. That is why people study for a lifetime and continue to learn right along.
Moses spent much time building a relationship with God, yet Korach doesn’t see any value to that. Instead he insists that he’s just as capable as Moses based on Korach’s understanding of what God taught.
Strutting around arrogantly taking on the world doesn’t seem to impress God all that much. Compare Korach’s attitude to Moses’ humility, ‘who am I that anyone should listen to me’ when God tells him to go speak to Pharaoh.
God knows who is with God and who isn’t. Anyone can pick up a fire pan and claim to be a priest.
God doesn’t seem to be much into “we’re all the same”. The community designed by God had boundaries and roles which needed to be honored. The religious life of one person was not the same as the next persons. Korach didn’t like these differences and sought to obliterate them. I would say God wasn’t all that pleased with this wonderfully democratic plan.
Even though God had good reason to be angry, even though Moses and Aaron had good reason to be angry both on God’s behalf and on their own, they still interceded with God on behalf of the people. They didn’t just stand their gloating as God’s fury was unleashed in full force; instead they did all that they could to abate that fury. It’s easy to be God’s ‘yes man’, but of what value is such a person to the world? Better the person who stands up to God and says, “You can’t do this!” Such a one not only saves people’s lives but saves God as well, in that God is not mocked by those on-lookers and dismissed as some out of control, angry entity that cannot even take care of the people God is supposed to be watching over.
Interesting to me in that when it is all over, the implements used in this insurrection ‘had become holy’ and were hammered out to make a covering for the Altar. The people who used them for profane purposes perished in their attempt to be a part of the priestly scene, yet the items made it inside……One of those little ironies hidden in Torah.
I wonder what it was that made these firepans ‘become holy’? I understand the reminder part, but am curious as to at what moment these ordinary firepans became holy. That’s why I love to study Torah. It is ever fascinating and contains much wisdom for living life.
SocietyVs,
You have a point (2 Timothy 2:23-25), but consider this: Have I misapplied Scripture? Does it matter that God’s words are coming out of my mouth? Are they not still God’s words? You still have not taken heed to the truth, even after I was patient with you and diligently went through every point to show the error of your way. Take a good hard look at the rebuke of Wisdom, i.e. Christ Himself (1 Corinthians 1:24):
The reason why I’m now talking to some of you in the manner I am is because God already gave you a chance to repent long ago and you didn’t take it, so I have no reason to continue trying (Titus 3:10). God has already told me to reject you, because it is quite clear that the fear of God is not in your eyes and won’t be even if I continue talking with you. John T. especially just wishes to mock me, and others join in when they think it’s “funny” enough. Remember, John, that if I confirm every word with Scripture, then it’s not me whom you are judging; you’re judging the Law of God itself (James 4:11).
Studying doesn’t amount to anything if you didn’t fear God in the first place (Proverbs 1:7), and as you already demonstrated, you didn’t fear God and still don’t, so your 14 years of study is nullified. Consider that false teachers spend their entire lives studying the Bible and yet still don’t know the first thing about it!
Besides, citing any amount of time of studying or any advance in age as an inherent qualification for wisdom is a Biblical fallacy:
So the difference between us is that I, having only studied for a year and only recently coming into the fear of the Lord, know next to nothing. Yet, without the fear of the Lord, you know nothing whatsoever (1 Timothy 6:4)!
Your hunches don’t have any evidence to support them. How do you know I don’t understand the importance of actions?
So you reveal that it’s all about you. You, you, you and nothing about God. Presupposing that I am doing evil, then what you are doing is returning evil for evil (Romans 12:17). You should not rebuke me if you are a hypocrite (Matthew 7:1).
Should God apologize for Sodom and Gomorrah? Do you have evidence that I am proud besides a mere hunch? Evidence would be if I favored man-made doctrines over the word of God (1 Tim. 6:4), and you haven’t loved my soul enough to show me that I’ve done that, if that’s what I’ve been doing.
Also, Jesus demeaned the faith of the Pharisees, so that certainly is not wrong, and since it is others who are disputing the fact that God hates, God destroys, God obliterates, all for His glory, then they are the ones who are standing in the way of letting others into the fullness of the faith (Matthew 23:13). You also seem to think it’s wrong to know the mystery of God and withhold others from it, which it is not (Mark 4:11).
You are as demeaning as I am, so I don’t see the difference.
Luke,
Seminary teaches you to distrust the Word of God. If you don’t want to be deceived, Bible study (2 Timothy 2:15) is something you need to do by yourself (Philippians 2:12).
And yes, you did miss the point of the Bible, which is written in Ecclesiastes 12:13. If you don’t go out and tell people they’re going to Hell, like Jesus did (Matthew 4:17; 5:22, 29-30; 10:28; 11:23; 18:9; 23:15, 33), you will be judged like the watchman who did not warn the wicked of their way — their blood God will require at your hands (Ezekiel 3:18-21; 33:1-6).
Yael, you are a blasphemer. God doesn’t need to be saved.
Joshua
I know you…………..I know your energy . I was where you are at, the difference though. I beat people with my fists………….you my young man beat them with your view of God from your interpretation of the Bible. I also know that because of where you are at, you will not hear these words. Your tongue will be sharp and it will find its way to where it can cut. I just hope for your sake, you dont run into a young version of me, because it wont be words he will sharing with you.
John T.
“You still have not taken heed to the truth, even after I was patient with you and diligently went through every point to show the error of your way” (Joshua)
Well thanks for that. You are not being honest enough with yourself – how can you say I do not heed the truth or the wisdom of God (ie: proverbs) – when you do not even know me? And for that matter John, Luke, OSS, or Yael? To be honest, Yael has said the most forthright thing in these 100+ comments – for all of us to heed.
“God has already told me to reject you, because it is quite clear that the fear of God is not in your eyes and won’t be even if I continue talking with you” (Joshua)
This isn’t true Joshua – you may believe it is – but I do not reject God and never have overlooked His teachings as to their importance. I guess you can reject me if this is what God has told you to do – but I find it odd God has not told me to reject you. I basically do not dislike you Joshua, I have problems with the words you say to others – they are not seasoned very well.
“and as you already demonstrated, you didn’t fear God and still don’t, so your 14 years of study is nullified” (Joshua)
How can you make such a claim Joshua – on what basis? A blog? Some comments? Because I reproved you of your claims and words to others? Hey, if you don’t like the fact I have faith in God – so be it – but don’t make claims you cannot back up. You don’t know me, you have never worked with me, you have not studied with me…so your claims are made is haste and are purely false.
“So the difference between us is that I, having only studied for a year and only recently coming into the fear of the Lord, know next to nothing. Yet, without the fear of the Lord, you know nothing whatsoeve” (Joshua)
Tell me Joshua, how should one of faith not be offended at ‘cut downs’ like this? These are no longer reproves, rebukes, or helping someone – this is just trying to cut someone down for the sake of doing so – in the name of God. How can you tell me about my relationship with God? Son, you do not even know me…yet you think you can judge my ‘fear of God’…hmmm…that smacks of a lie.
“You should not rebuke me if you are a hypocrite” (Joshua)
Well at least that puts us in the same boat as equals for once…”You are as demeaning as I am, so I don’t see the difference”
But for the record, I have not demeaned your faith by way of cutdowns or anything of the like – I simply call your words to account and nothing more. I don’t think you don’t have faith in God – it is quite clear that you do – what I am not overlooking is the way you have treated others in your choice of words. I know one lady, an agnostic, you have not apologized to and you made justifications for it. How come it is so hard to say ‘you are sorry’ for cutting her down?
Also, if you think it is okay for Jesus to cut people down then I guess that is all the justification you need for doing so – I tend to focus on the compassionate Jesus because that works in real life. People desire forgiveness, compassion, love, empathy, hope, grace, and peace. I have yet to find a place where Jesus actually teaches us to cut others down or demean the meaning of anothers faith…there is no teaching for this. I don’t care how hard you search – you will not find it.
The reason I have to say the things I do is because you act as if you have the answers for each and every person on this site – when we all know full well – you do not. You are getting caught up in the reading of the words and how they sound to your ears – and perhaps even developing Jerusalem Syndrome of some sort – feeling so connected to the words as to think you are a prophet or something similar. Believe me Joshua, I been there – right where you are standing.
I attended church for the first year of my faith approx 250 times in one year – read through the bible at least 3 times – and swallowed as much as I could learn from those around me and from study. I know how that feels – and it is a good thing. But that one year was one of the 14 so far – humility is knowing you do not know everything. I went to bible college for 4 years and earned a Bachelor’s of Theology – because I was passionate about it the ‘word of God’.
You are only at the beginning of the faith – and there is a whole life ahead of you yet. You cannot tell others their faith means nothing because yours means something – and we do not all see ‘eye to eye’ – these people you speak to belong to God and deserve your respect – not your disdain. All I am asking is you ‘love your brother or your neighbor’.
“you will be judged like the watchman who did not warn the wicked of their way — their blood God will require at your hands (Ezekiel 3:18-21; 33:1-6).” (Joshua)
This is taken out of context also. Ezekiel is not addressing hell, the Christian doctrine we have, in this passage. Ezekiel is promoted as a watchman for God to warn Isreal about impending doom (Jerusalem’s capture) so he could direct the people back to serving God. Also, by use of the term wicked – God actually means someone that is practicing wickedness upon other people. See below:
“Therefore say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “You eat meat with the blood in it, lift up your eyes to your idols as you shed blood Should you then possess the land? “You rely on your sword, you commit abominations and each of you defiles his neighbor’s wife. Should you then possess the land?”‘ (Ezekiel 33:25-26)
Yeah…these people committed immoral acts – warn the wicked – not the bloggers.
Yeal, that was a very well timed teaching from Parashah – and one of great importance for all of us to sit and learn from. I think this comparison of Moses and Korach is important – concerning the faith. I liked how you compared Moses’ humility with that of Korach’s – which is essential to understanding God or developing any relationship with anyone. You also show a Moses who stood up for young Korach – which I also value as something of importance – because Korach may not have understood his whole coup de tat.
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. (Matthew 12:33-34)
…those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies… (Matthew 15:18-19)
For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple. (Romans 16:18)
You did not call the idle words of others here to account.
If I had sinned, I would have apologized.
Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. (Matthew 15:7-8)
Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. (Matthew 21:31)
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men’s] bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? (Matthew 23:13-33)
You are on the broad way (Matthew 7:13) if you think these people are Godly.
You do err. Look at Ezekiel 3:18-21. Verses 18 and 21 say “thou hast delivered thy soul” if you warn the wicked, indicating that we are not just talking about carnal, earthly death, but the eternal destination of one’s soul, which depends on whether he warns the wicked or stays silent.
Warning you and the others here about idolatry.
Verse references above which have the 8) symbol should read Romans 16:18 and Matthew 15:7-8, respectively.
Hi Pam
Just so you know I like the discourse. Also some of my best friends are what I would term “Fundies”. I guess what I mean by that term is ” a person who thinks they know what God wants”. Now as Humans we can put our Faith in anything we want, that is our choice. The issue I have is when someone thinks their Faith is the only one. Now we can use all the niceties and say we respect other beliefs but when you go back and say that Jesus is the only way, then you negate everyone elses beliefs. I love reading the Bible, I think it has a wealth of Love and life lessons in it. Is it the official word of God, maybe. But for all those people who dont read it im sure there are other official words God uses to talk to them. Now I tend to base my ideas on what I can touch, taste, feel, and sense. I use what my creator gave me, which includes a wonderful machine called my brain. In fact my favourite scripture is I Thessalonians 5:21……”Test everything and hold on to what is good”…….dam fine words. The “Truth” of the matter is that you are part of this world, Now you may not want to be here or stay here but I have news for you……….youre HERE! The interesting thing is you actually partake in this world all the time, you just choose what you partake in. And this I am sure, there are things you partake in that if viewed literally from your Bible, you would be a very bad woman. Heres an interesting thought for you. Eternity is not some time and place you go to, it is happening right NOW. Jesus said as much when speaking of the Kingdom. Luke 17:21
“nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”
Right here, Right Now………………………….Geez wasnt that a Van Halen song too 😉
Hey, I agree with Joshua on something. I, too, see him acting exactly as Jesus acted, calling people names, insulting everyone who disagrees with him, claiming that he alone speaks for God and knows what Torah says. And now perhaps the rest of you understand completely why I have no use for your Jesus. I understand your trying to present him differently, but all I see is a Joshua and who in the world would want anything to do with that?
If I’m a blasphemer, then so were Abraham and Moses. Both of them saved God from being defamed among the nations. I have come along to pick up the pieces of quite a number of the victims of people like Joshua, to help them realize that the god of Joshua is a pagan, fire-breathing god who desires only death and destruction, unlike the God of Torah who desires a mutual relationship with people. a compassionate God, slow to anger, a God who looks out for the poor, the orphan and the widow.
Let me add a couple posts I wrote in January pertaining to prophecy:
Abraham Joshua Heschel from ‘The Prophets’:
O Lord God, forgive, I beseech Thee!
How can Jacob stand?
He is so small! (Amos 7:2)
When the lives of others are at stake, the prophet does not say, “Thy will be done!” but rather, “Thy will be changed.”
The Lord repented concerning this;
It shall not be, said the Lord. (Amos 7:3)
[The Prophets, p. 22]
Do those today who believe most of the world is condemned to hell ever argue with God about this? Or do they not care since they consider themselves exempt? There is talk about ‘compassion for the lost’ but is there ever any standing up for ‘the lost’? Why not? Isn’t this ever the pattern in Tanakh? To argue for the sake of others?
Heschel again: Authentic utterance derives from a moment of identification of a person and a word; it’s significance depends upon the urgency and magnitude of tis theme. The prophet’s theme is, first of all, the very life of a whole people, and his identification lasts more than a moment. He is one not only with what he says; he is involved with his people in what his words foreshadow. This is the secret of the prophet’s style: his life and soul are at stake in what he says and in what is going to happen to what he says. It is an involvement that echoes on. What is more, both theme and identification are seen in three dimensions. Not only the prophet and the people, but God Himself is involved in what the words convey.
Prophetic utterance is rarely cryptic, suspended between God and man; it is urging, alarming, forcing onward, as if the words gushed forth from the heart of God, seeking entrance to the heart and mind of man, carrying a summons as well as an involvement. Grandeur, not dignity, is important. The language is luminous and explosive, firm and contingent, harsh and compassionate, a fusion of contradictions. (The Prophets, pp. 6-7)
Judaism says prophecy ended during the exile. Many Christians also say prophecy has ended. There are some today, however, who claim to be prophets. Yet do they match the model of prophets as shown in Tanakh? Do those who call themselves prophets today have this same identification spoken of by Heschel, where whatever happens will also happen to them? Or do they only talk about ‘you people’ and what will happen to ‘you’, holding themselves aloof, considering themselves elevated from all they lambaste, considering themselves ’saved’ from the destruction they foretell?
And one last thing:
Nowhere in the prophetic books are the ‘nations’ condemned for worshiping their gods–only for the ethical abominations such as child sacrifice associated with worship.
Rabbi Louis Jacobs, The Unfolding Tradition: Jewish Law After Sinai by Elliot Dorff, p. 278.
Society,
Always fun to talk Torah with you. Funny how we walk very different paths, yet not.
Yael
You crack me up…………Now I know why so many Jews are in the Media business, they love words 😉
“I have only been studying the Bible for a bit longer than a year. I don’t know it very well.” (Joshua)
Joshua, I refer you to one scripture only, in regards to the words you write on this blog. A novice in the word should not teach, rebuke, or reprove.
1 Timothy 3:6 – Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
If you want to ask questions and discuss matters of faith, then by all means go ahead. But, do not be trying to teach and/or judge, as you are a novice. To continue in the manner that goes against 1 Timothy3:6 would indicate that you do not believe the Bible.
Also I will pray for you, because I am genuinely concerned for your soul, spirit, and mind.
– David
John T,
Ya betcha. We’re the people of the book, you know. That’s why I’ll make a good rabbi. “Let me just say a couple words about….” and 20 minutes later they’re still talking! (I’m not supposed to be blogging, but….I just had to contribute a thought.) 😀
I must admit, John T, many of your comments also make me smile. Anyway, you have to be good people. You have a French wife. 😉
Thanks for all the scripture Joshua – I’ll be sure to read it over and mull what it all actually means in it’s original context and what we all can garner from such teachings.
It still stands your claims about me or others on here are false and made in haste – you do not have the whole story on each of us and to claim some of them are not godly – is to also claim you know their actions and what they do – of that you do not – and neither do I.
All you are doing is using scripture to justify your reasoning and nothing more – and that’s a horrible way to use what is called “God’s words’. It still stands also – you need to love (I Cor 13) your neighbor – and care about those people – by this the original community of Christians was defined – as John says ‘you will know them by their love’. Now go and find out what love means – read ! Corinthians 13 and let me know – do these things reside in your heart – to your brother, your neighbor, and even your enemy (all these people Jesus taught us to love). You are not exempt – namely if you say you follow the Christ.
“You are on the broad way (Matthew 7:13) if you think these people are Godly.” (Joshua)
You are too narrow of way if you think you are not to care about the people on this blog…God teaches us that plain and simple. Now you can reject me and all the others for being people of faith (just not like you) – but is that living the idea of love? I think your picking and choosing right now what you think is right – and have yet to be exposed to more in the faith – and in due time – you will be. But for now, you need to pray about the idea of love and what that means to do.
“Hey, I agree with Joshua on something. I, too, see him acting exactly as Jesus acted, calling people names, insulting everyone who disagrees with him, claiming that he alone speaks for God and knows what Torah says” (Yael)
Joshua, is this how Jesus acted? Even someone from outside this faith is making the same obvious critique of your writings…I don’t know…maybe you have Jesus down to an art?
“If I’m a blasphemer, then so were Abraham and Moses. Both of them saved God from being defamed among the nations” (Joshua)
This is true Joshua – both Abraham and Moses argued with God – this is right in scripture plain as day – and even the Amos passage shows this. Uh oh, you mean we can argue with God?
“I have come along to pick up the pieces of quite a number of the victims of people like Joshua, to help them realize that the god of Joshua is a pagan, fire-breathing god who desires only death and destruction, unlike the God of Torah who desires a mutual relationship with people. a compassionate God, slow to anger, a God who looks out for the poor, the orphan and the widow.” (Yael)
Amen (one of the very rare times I ever say this!). How does God look in our eyes is the real question? This is why many people are leaving this Christian faith in droves – people are sick of a view of God that seems mean, angry, and who’s only concern is damnation. I respect Yael’s view of God – it’s passionate and real – in this real life and in real time (concern for us – here and now).
“The language is luminous and explosive, firm and contingent, harsh and compassionate, a fusion of contradictions” (Heschel)
Ahhhh, the beauty of faith in God! I think this is what makes a good blog convo – things like this being discussed and us realizing the depth of differences that can exist and yet still maintain as a united whole.
“Always fun to talk Torah with you. Funny how we walk very different paths, yet not.” (Yael)
I always appreciate your writings and viewpoints from Judaism – they bring a refreshing new look for me into the Tanakh…I learn to see the writings from their proper lenses – the rabbinical commentary. Christians skew those books to almost beyond recognition and use loose passages from them – sew them together – and then pretend ‘uh huh – I figured out God!’. Meanwhile, on planet earth, they are good at sewing and that’s about it (patchwork dogma I call it).
I realize where this comes from – they think cause Paul and others do this that it’s the way to interpretation/understanding – yet it ignores the basics – context! Top that off with most Christian people having little to no understanding about actual Jewish teachings on the Tanakh – and wallah – a recipe for disaster! The most known recipe in the Christian faith.
I think when I realized this – it made me humble about what I thought I knew – and about being careful with teachings I have not thoroughly studied (Tanakh).
I read Joshua’s stuff and I realized – we have varying understandings about God, Jesus, interpretation, the Tanakh, the law, the prophets, etc. I am fine with that personally…this all came with time for me.
SVS
“as John says ‘you will know them by their love”
Darn did I say that 😉 …………….oops that was the other John
and John T said that (LOL) too
Yael
You actually brought back some old memories of when I was a young man. I used to work at a Jewish Rehabilitation Hospital, and the one thing that struck me was none of them tried to save me. They gave me lots of great life lessons but they werent to worried about my eternal soul being damned. LOL. wonder why. hehehe. also youre right the best thing about me is MA FEMME.
“If I’m a blasphemer, then so were Abraham and Moses. Both of them saved God from being defamed among the nations” (Joshua)
Um, I’m the one that said that, good blasphemer that I am and all….
You and me, we once had just black paint and white paint. But, through Judaism we discovered all the colors of the rainbow. It doesn’t mean that we always use them the way we should or always put together the right combinations, but so what? We have discovered that life is beautiful and that there are infinite possibilities with these colors. What I find interesting is watching you use these colors on your texts, texts that I’ve only ever seen as black and white. Your texts will still never interest me, my soul is Jewish and that’s just the way it is, but it is still fun to watch an artist at work, learning, mastering, learning some more. Other people find their colors elsewhere, others put their artistry to work elsewhere. I applaud them as well.
But, I lived too many years of my life in a world that alternated between harsh, blinding light and the darkest of shadows, to have much patience for the black and white world some preach. Too many good souls are crushed or destroyed in that world, where people sacrifice their children, their neighbors, their world, all in the name of their sick gods. No thanks. If I am wrong, so what? I go to hell. Big deal. I’d rather go to hell than spend eternity with a devil disguised as god. I decided that long ago. I’m not worried, however, not in the least.
Life is good.
John T,
You mean you aren’t that John? And here I was thinking you have quite a way with ‘words’ yourself….
I just added Luke’s comment – it’s #111 – for some reason I had to sign in to make sure it was added (likely because of the links).
thejust1 said:
You had me going for a minute. I honestly was about to recant everything I said and take down my blog based on that verse alone, but as a good Berean should (Acts 17:10-11) I checked the reference you gave me and found that you had taken it out of context. Re-read 1 Timothy 3:6 in context of the paragraph in which it was written. Notice that the first verse of the chapter begins with a qualifying delimiter: verse 6 applies only to those who wish to hold the office of an overseer. If I have to be not a novice in order to merely rebuke, judge, etc., then according to your folly I would also have to be the husband of one wife and with believing children, as the passage dictates.
And this makes sense, because when the Bible elsewhere tells us to judge, rebuke, exhort, etc. (Jude 3; 1 Corinthians 2:15; etc.), it is addressed to believers at large and not just the overseers of churches.
Nevertheless, I appreciate your attempt at correcting me, because in it you showed true love, even if you were ultimately mistaken.
Now Luke’s comment which was just added:
In the post, note that I said before the list that all the people I listed as going to hell must be understood in context. In context, Romans 2:1 (and all the other verses condemning judges) is talking about those who make false judgments. Yes, judges go to hell, and yes, the Bible nevertheless tells us to judge all things. No contradiction. You just gotta check the context in which these things are said. It’s just like hate — it’s ok to hate and not ok to hate, depending on context.
SocietyVs said:
Why?
Amen. Yes, I could certainly do better following more closely the teachings of 1 Corinthians 13. But still, your idea of love is skewed if you wish to let people continue in their folly.
Love means more than just being nice to people. Love has eternal, not just worldly importance. There is spiritual love and earthly love. You have earthly love and I have spiritual love. Now maybe I will learn from your earthly love, but will you learn from my spiritual love?
Jesus was not a hippy, and He came to set fire on the earth. He is most certainly more hard-core, more Old Testament prophet-style than you seem to think. Though when I wrote the letter to my parents about their disgusting religion, I told them that Jesus was even scarier than Old Testament prophets.
Also, Abraham and Moses did not argue against God. “But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God?” (Romans 9:20). Beseeched Him, pleaded with Him, words like that word more accurately describe their conversations.
“I checked the reference you gave me and found that you had taken it out of context. Re-read 1 Timothy 3:6 in context of the paragraph in which it was written. Notice that the first verse of the chapter begins with a qualifying delimiter: verse 6 applies only to those who wish to hold the office of an overseer. ” (Joshua)
I knew that you would try to find an excuse to not believe the words of the Bible.
Definition of an overseer – a man charged with the duty of seeing that things to be done by others are done rightly.
From all the comments that you post, it is obvious that you are man who feels that it his duty to see that things done by others are done rightly.
If you do not wish to hold the office of an overseer, that is fine, however the words that you write show something different and they show that you are trying to act in the manner of an overseer. For that reason 1 Timothy 3:6 does apply to you. You are a novice and are acting in a manner contrary to this scripture.
Secondly, the scripture regardless of the context in which it was written is still a warning to anyone who is a novice. It is a twofold warning – (1) a warning that a novice should not desire the office of the overseer and (2) a novice can be lifted up with pride and will then fall into the condemnation of the devil.
Thirdly, I only tell you these things because I am concerned for you. I don’t want to see you lifted up with pride. I desire for you to taste and see that the Lord is good – Psalm 34:8 and that you would not develop a root of bitterness everytime you are corrected and thereby defile many- Hebrews 11:15.
A guy with your kind of talent needs to put it to good use.
Christianity is a beautiful faith. Take the time to really explore it and don’t put so much emphasis on judging. That’s not your place, a novice needs to learn.
John T.,
Well, I’ll start where we agree, this moment is eternity. Of course eternity is happening right now. Eternity has no beginning as well as no end.
I agree that there are many paths to God but there is only One that leads to the point at which God pours out His mercy, undeserved, and that is Jesus. Jesus is the only Way to be forgiven of our sins and be restored to our Heavenly Father in a loving parent child relationship. I know of no other but Jesus who offers this. Since He is the only one in whom this is promised, I guess it stands to reason that He is the only Way to receive that which He offers.
His Kingdom is here and now for those who are in Him and He in them. It is a spiritual Kingdom now but someday, the faith will be made sight and righteousness will be the rule of that day and not the exception as it is in this present time.
I have a brain too and my intellegence is not less than just because I don’t agree with you or find it necessary to find unity in religion with all other religions. Mutual respect is quite sufficient for me in the way that I relate to others, including those who don’t agree with me. I am fine to let them be as they are without compromising my beliefs. I believe what I believe because I believe that it is true; I don’t believe that it might be true or that it certainly can’t be true if it offends another. I live to please my God and not other human beings.
Yes, I am in the world. I am in it but it hasn’t made me the woman that I am. I don’t enjoy sin the way I did before Jesus came into my life but I am human and I still sin; and yes, the Bible generally points that out to me. That is the main reason why I read the Bible. It is the most accurate mirror I have ever come across. Implementing the teachings of the Bible into my life has changed my life in many wonderful ways.
I think that covers it. Thanks for giving me your definition of ‘fundie’. It is interesting how people use the term and how few of them really know what a Fundamentalist Christian is.
thejust1,
Your words hold some water. It is true that “a novice can be lifted up with pride and will then fall into the condemnation of the devil.” But you’re just going beyond what’s written (1 Corinthians 4:6) by judging me as you are now.
I am ministering to you, which is a duty of all believers. Although the definitions are similar, it is not the same as holding an actual office (i.e. pastor/bishop/overseer). I am simply following a literal reading of the text, and you are using an extension of the text to judge me.
If you cannot prove using the text — and without extending it or going beyond what’s written — that I am in the wrong, then you are wrong for judging me so.
It is the special nature of being a teacher (which I am not), a pastor, overseer, bishop, whatever you want to call it, that makes it a major problem if one is a novice. Teachers receive stricter judgment (James 3:1), which is why it is so easy for a novice to fall into pride and then condemnation. I am nothing. You are not a congregant over whom I have been given authority. I have no authority besides a basic working knowledge of the Bible, and that’s all you need to start fighting the good fight of faith. 1 Timothy 3:6 simply reveals you need more than that basic working knowledge if you desire any official authority.
Also note that I know my limits. I only minister to people concerning matters at which I am not a novice. I would never have an eschatological debate with someone anytime soon, because I wouldn’t know what to say.
Joshua
There you go again, flexes your muscles. Feels good doesnt it. And you know what youre pretty strong too. You work out hard on your word of God and you are pumped. You know say much yet know so little about Love and Life and pain and suffering, but no need to worry theres lots of time to learn. Pride goeth before a fall.
Pam
Im not sure how secure you are in your faith, or for that matter how flexible you are, but I suggest you read an excellent book called “The inescapable Love of God”. I think you may find it quite the eye opener.
John T.
Joshua
oops. I meant “say much, know little”………..serves me right for writing at 5:30 in the morning lol
John T,
I know of the book you suggest and I know the mindset of those who recommend it so i think I know where it leads. Of course, I may be wrong so if I come across it, I give it a look. However, I already have an eye opening book in regards to faith.:0)
I just looked back at the title of this very long thread…I’m not so sure that we’ve defined God but we have all defined ourselves in the eyes of one another…I think that is always the case with the whats of our faith. Anyway, don’t define me too rigidly yet. You don’t know me very well.
I got one question, and myabe this should be a blog of it’s own, can Joshua be wrong? As of 140 comments and his few comments (and blog posts) around the net, not so far. So it begs the question, can he be wrong?
I am coming out and saying it – Joshua is either altogether right or altogether wrong – how shall we judge this matter?
JB
Why does it have to be black or white when there is lots of gray. There may be lots about what he says thats exactly bang on. And ultimately none of us know. Its all guesstimation. Only 2 absolutes in life, death and taxes 😉
It’s pretty clear in my mind what Joshua is about.
Sorry if I come across as harsh on the young man and I use this forum for those discussions. It’s not my nature to publicly correct anyone, but this seems to be the best avenue for discussions with him. He joined in on the conversations and for whatever reason, God gave him to us. I just want to be mindful of that gift.
So, I try to help him and keep him in the community. I do it because I feel a sense of concern for him. Hopefully he will allow himself to be teachable.
thejust1
Im just curious, how old are you?
John T.
At risk of being called a novice, I’m 41. Which is somewhere around 495 moons. I guess I’m pushing 500 moons. 🙂
And just for SVS, I’m at the top of the gene pool 🙂 LOL
thejust1
You might remember this song by styx, its called fooling yourself, and I thought these lyrics were so appropriate for Joshua.
“You see the world through your cynical eyes
You’re a troubled young man I can tell
You’ve got it all in the palm of your hand
But your hand’s wet with sweat and your head needs a rest
And you’re fooling yourself if you don’t believe it
You’re kidding yourself if you don’t believe it
How can you be such an angry young man
When your future looks quite bright to me
How can there be such a sinister plan
That could hide such a lamb, such a caring young man”
“Only 2 absolutes in life, death and taxes ”
i’d say 2 absolutes would be death and change. and, it seems, fundamentalists who use love as a weapon.
2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
For me they key in the discussions (and the dividing line) is always a matter of perspective. One can say there is one certainty in life – like death – but before death is life. One could say taxes is a surety – but also those taxes help all in society – so they are a sense of sharing. The thing, and this is always the way it is, the defines someone is their persepective.
Now Joshua focuses on scripture as a backing for what he says – fine – but scripture isn’t going about and interpreting itself – it needs a voice – it needs what John would call ‘the word made flesh’ – alive in our day and moving. We all bring a perspective into the conversation – and this is what needs to be admitted by all. I know my interpretation is a product of what I have studied (word), lived (experiences), and thought (discussion)…and I am part of that process. The removal of oneself is impossible – not matter how we look at it.
I can respect Joshua for that – he is being himself where he is at today. The same goes for me and Bruced – we are different places in life – and we may not see ‘eye to eye’ – but no one has to lose in the game of faith.
I don’t understand what you mean. Are you asking if my overall message can be wrong? Or are you asking if I’m capable in my own mind of making mistakes?
To answer your question, look at Proverbs 2. Someone who has been saved has been given understanding and knowledge by the Holy Spirit. So at the risk of sounding arrogant, I’m going to say that IF I am truly saved, my overall message is not, can not, be wrong. Theological error is greatly diminished in salvation, yet the wise are always learning: “Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be still wiser. Teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.” Proverbs 9:9. But that’s not to say I don’t make mistakes. There is just a big difference between believing in the true God but knowing in part (1 Corinthians 13:9) and growing in knowledge (2 Peter 3:18), and believing in an entirely false Christ, false way, etc.
Why not?
It’s not my nature to publicly correct anyone. For alot of reasons, but verse 15 below states it very well. Blogging doesn’t really provide that opportunity.
Matthew 18:15-20
15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. 18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
That passage is talking about when your brother sins against you (“if they brother shall trespass against thee”). Public sins, however, should be rebuked publicly as is the case with elders who sin (1 Timothy 5:20), because they are sinning against all, being overseers of a congregation.
Privately correct those who privately sin against you (Matthew 18:15) and publicly correct those who publicly sin (1 Timothy 5:19-20). It makes perfect sense.
“Privately correct those who privately sin against you (Matthew 18:15) and publicly correct those who publicly sin (1 Timothy 5:19-20). It makes perfect sense.” (Joshua)
There is nothing about publicly correcting public sin in the Timothy passage – only those “who continue in sin” – that says nothing about it being a ‘public sin’ per se. That being said, Paul had his run-ins with this whole thing in Corinthians and some of the problems taking place there – with a son and step-mother in adultery (whom he did not stone by the way).
I think if someone does not sin against us – then we also should not want to hear it publicly (I would call that gossip) – it’s not a sin against us that we can forgive anyways. But I get Paul’s idea of admonishing someone for their sin – if they continue to do it to the harm of another – then yes – by all means let’s get involved.
JB and thejust1
Do you guys realize your debating with an 18yr old about how to interpret scripture. Also one who by the looks of things, doesnt want to hear what you say, only wants to show the error of your ways and correct you. Talk about the inmates running the prison.
John T
Not only that, but a guy who makes up his own rules and parameters for interpretation, that change with whatever wind is blowing.
I prefer the phrase “the monkees are running the zoo” 🙂
Styx quote was awesome by the way, very profound. Even though I wasn’t a big fan back in the day.
Does that mean we lose 😦 (lol)
Hmm. I’m encountering three different ways of looking at it simply by looking at three different reliable translations.
The KJ3 (supposedly the most literal of all, also known as LITV) says to immediately rebuke (with 2-3 witnesses) those who sin publicly. The NKJV says to immediately rebuke before the whole congregation any elder who is sinning (note the verb tense). Then, the NAS (also known as being very literal) says to rebuke in the presence of the whole congregation those elders who continue sinning (note verb tense), thus after receiving the accusation.
So, in the LITV and NKJV, verses 19 and 20 are talking about one single event, whereas NAS is talking about first an accusation and then a public rebuke if they continue to sin. Knowing Greek probably wouldn’t do us much good since the translators of all three of these translations all knew Greek very well.
So the best I can do is to tell you what these three have in common. An elder who sins must be rebuked, and it must be on the testimony of 2-3 witnesses. What’s certain is that the rebuke has to be public “that the rest may also fear.” Whether the sin itself has to be public is not certain, so I therefore take back my earlier reference to 1 Timothy 5:20 as an example of why we need to immediately rebuke public sin.
However, there is no doubt in my mind that the basic principle still applies — to a certain extent — due to some other verses. Note the “in the presence of all” in Galatians 2:14, and most importantly, look at Ephesians 5:11: “And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.” Exposing evil implies that there’s someone we’re exposing it to, and in the context of Scripture, “the presence of all” is one’s audience when exposing false teaching and hypocrisy.
You know what boggles my mind. Supposedly the Bible is the infallible word of God. Yet here we have Joshua reading at least 3 different views, how in Gods name can you decide which one is right or which combination offers the best interpretation. Sure seems like a crap shoot to me. Im always amazed at the human condition. The need for certainty in a less than certain world. I prefer not knowing what the turns the ride is going to make.
“Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning” (1 Timothy 5:19-20)
“A single witness shall not rise up against a man on account of any iniquity or any sin which he has committed; on the evidence of two or three witnesses a matter shall be confirmed” (Deuteronomy 19:15)
The original part Paul is using is based in the Law concerning a matter of the law – in this case – a charge against a person cannot be proven true without actual witnesses – for credibility reasons. Reason being, the court could not determine the matter without only one witness – since who is to say the person isn’t lying. Call it a sort of due process.
Paul uses it in a more church specific way – the use of the law is the standard – and a good practice with a leader and someone accusing them – is to have a few witnesses so they can proclaim without a doubt the claim being made.
Paul’s second part of that sentence is about a leader in the church – and the actual calling to account of their actions (something they are doing that is immoral). This is fair – a leader is held to a high account and for them to set a standard that is counter the teachings – well..is not good for the community. That problem the leader has needs to be dealt with in a manner that both shows it is not ‘the standard’ (for the sake of the community’s health) and can show the leader they are doing something unhealthy (that the community cares about him too).
I guess maybe the problem is made public – which can be a good thing – most of the time I have seen it – it has been so distastefully to make the process abhorent.
Changed my mind about this
read your blog Joshua… it seems to be a “i’m sorry you’re all wrong” post. prideful prideful shame shame..
also looked into “judgement”. the scripture you quoted did not have “false” anywhere in front of nor behind “judgement”. in Paul’s letters he talks about discernment vs. condemnation. he only differs in his theories in timothy.. why is that? paul didn’t write timothy for one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Epistle_to_Timothy#The_challenge_to_Pauline_authorship) and two, the greek words for discernment and condemnation are usually translated “judgement’ willy-nilly by most versions save for the KJV and the NRSV. so for the record, discernment is good, condemnation is bad (John 8:1-11).
Not sure what you’re referring to. You will need to quote me so I know what reference I gave you that you disagree with.
Why are you citing the speculations of some incredibly dumb scholars as if they’re facts? Apparently in the world we live in, a scholar’s Ph.D. overrides God’s Masters degree.
Check Greek for John 7:24