Discussion: Prophets & When Christianity Veers Off

I am dedicating a blog to a discussion – everyone can feel free to offer some advice or words of encouragement.

 

I will include ‘Naked Pastor‘ and ‘Stupid Church People’ in on this also – they are also good conversers.  

 

Recently, this message appeared on my blog.

Hi! I found your blog desperately trying to find people who were/are disgusted with “thetrumpetcallofgod” as I am. I’m Trent’s wife and my friend Buffy and I are so tired of living with this prophet crap that our husband’s are into & we are looking for support. I’ve been reading your old blogs and I know that this is old for you but it’s an everyday thing for us. Can you talk about what you know to us?” (Heather)

Two additional comments can also be found in my blog ‘Forgiveness – Publicity Gone Bad’. There also may be a few older posts in there concerning this same issue.

Background info: I had some dealings with her husband in the past on a site called Gracehead and with this prophet called ‘Timothy’ (they call him Speedy). I was basically ostracized, along with a few others, from blogging with them again due to disagreements of theology and challenges to Timothy. In my post above about forgiveness – I am seen to apologize to Trent for my behavior (over a blog I pulled because of it’s bad taste). I actually still am sorry for my sarcasm in that blog. But it is good to know some of the background to the situation.

The reason I want to open discussion is because maybe some of us had dealings of similar sorts and can offer some level of comfort to them – or maybe even tidbits of advice. I feel sympathy for the situation they are in – haven’t we all dealt with some form of ‘prophet’ or another – when Christianity goes wrong?

I am not sure how this is going to work – but I want them to know – sometimes talking about it might be the first step to better understanding of the situation? For this reason – I have invited the community to speak on the issue – maybe we can have a type of ‘sharing circle’?

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86 thoughts on “Discussion: Prophets & When Christianity Veers Off

  1. Some background on some of the commentors and how they have some background that may help:

    Just1: Pastor of 3 churches in his life (all evangelical in nature) – Graduated from Seminary

    Wilfred: Was a leader in a church ministry (music); attended Bible College; Has some counselling background

    Bruce: Was in ministry (evangelical) for many years – has a good background for these issues

    Mike and Brad (COAS) – Both in seminary and studying to become pastors

    Jolly Beggar: Pastor of a church (Free Methodist)

    Dagoods: Has a very well studied background in scripture – and has dealt with issues of fundamentalism

    John Shuck: Pastor of a church (presbyterian)

    Kevin Beck: Not too sure – but he is very well versed in scripture – very nice person

    LIT: She is the husband of a pastor – deals with these same issues from time to time

    Luke: Seminary student studying to become a pastor

    Jim (Moral Science Club): Christian business owner – writer – over 900 posts – very concerned Christian person

    Mystical Seeker: Good background and deals with issues like this – may have some deep insight

    Naked Pastor: Pastor in Canada – Vineyard church

    One Small Step: Brilliant in her critiques on the faith – very strong background in these issues

    Steve (SCP): Ex ministry leader with Rick Warren’s church – great pastoral background

    Shane Vanderhart: Pastor of a church in America – very dedicated to the faith and can offer sound advice

    Steve Scott: Great analysis skills concerning scripture – insight into fundamentalism

    Yael: Jewish lady studying to become a rabbi – resident expert on this blog concerning Judaism and interpretation(s) of OT scriptures (has some experience with fundamentalism also)

    ***I guess I just want Heather and her friend to know that in this subject of faith (and possible brain-washing) that there are people here with experiences in this field and may have information to offer.

    Me – I have a bachelor of theology – was a former youth leader – I am no expert but I can relate to this issue concerning Timothy – had a friend sorta like that once

  2. Heather, here is my official response to ‘what I know’ about Timothy and Gracehead.

    (a) Timothy claims to be hearing from the very mouth of Jesus Christ – and says so in many of his letters…I disagree with him on this.

    (b) Timothy is likely a 7th Day Adventist and his biblical interpretations are a mixture of prophetic writings meet Revelations – and most of it is doom and gloom.

    (c) Timothy is very judgmental – to the point where you question him – he gets a little outraged and otracizes you. Some prophet.

    (d) Timothy is calling people to flee holidays and start embracing the Jewish Holy Days – although none of us know how to do that and are not Jewish. I am not against the idea of celebrating the Jewish Holy Days – but why do it alone?

    (e) Timothy is a staunch literalist that interprets Jewish literature (prophets and Torah) that he has little to no study of (by admission). Thus his interpretations take on only a literal tone – which may be very mistaken.

    (f) Gracehead and a few of us had words about the gospel of Jesus and their view of the law (and it’s uses) – they tended to become very rigid concerning this topic and Timothy believes we have to follow all the Jewish laws also – as Christians. Thus the reasons your husbands would become very judgmental – they do not understand the law and nor does Timothy.

    (g) in the end, we got the boot from their and they wanted nothing to do with us – Timothy even condemned a few of us concerning the questions and statements we were making.

    That man is not a prophet by no stretch of his imagination. I am not sure he even understands the role of the prophet in the prophetic writings – since he makes it seem like he is one with God – seperate from the rest of the people…with some special knowledge that only he gets from God (so we all have to go to him for it). Yeah, Timothy is not Moses – but he sures wants to be him…Jerusalem syndrome is happening here.

  3. I feel bad for the “Timothy’s” of the world and even worse for the two women that have to be subjected to this brand of Christianity.

    I have had more than my share of experience with this type of prophetic ministry. It is rooted in a “power and control” mentality and when it is given a forum or an avenue to be expressed it becomes abusive.

    This is a form of abuse that is extremely dangerous because it gives the vicitim the impression that to stand up against this abuse is to be fighting against the will of God. Also it gives the abuser the right to continue to be abusive because he is convinced that it is directed by God.

    I hope that the two women and their husbands will see what is truly going on with Timothy and see beyond the words that he writes (speaks).

  4. My wife and I had our own run-in with the “prophet” type guy in this model. Not quite as extreme, but perhaps just in the early stages of development to becoming just as scary.

    At first, it seemed like a nice little church. Warm, friendly, accessible. Leaning a little more toward the Holy Spirit than toward Jesus and the Father, but there’s a place for that, and I appreciated being reminded of the importance of the holy spirit in our lives.

    We met some nice people there. The music was really good, not staid old hymns and choirs and such, which bore both me and the wife most Sundays.

    But as things went on, it became clear that what we were in was a church skewing quickly toward a very dramatic Pentacostal style with the Word of Faith movement serving as the foundation.

    Increasingly, tongues were being spoken without restraint and without interpretation. People were being prayed over, but it didn’t seem supportive but more a way to try to hold them tighter. We got more messages about how we won’t be sick and we won’t have to worry about money as long as we have faith (with the subtext being that if you are sick or have money problems, your faith was weak and you did something wrong).

    We saw one poor soul who so needed Jesus disappear one day because he was getting zero spiritual support. Another person was drummed out of the band AND the congregation for questioning the pastor.

    People we thought we nice and well meaning (and probably were/are) are now in the leadership and have clearly drank the kool-aid. The congregation is paying for the pastor to get flying lessons and the pastor is preaching that salvation is something you can lose if you make a few too many little mistakes and commit a couple too many sins.

    I wish I had some advice for the wives going through this. At least from what we’ve seen, the husbands who bought into this pastor’s agenda (in the church we fled) are buying into it as couples…and the people who were driven out or ran away also did so as couples.

    To the best of my knowledge, no couples were split in their opinions.

    In the end, a house divided cannot stand, though. If these wives are being oppressed by their husbands because those husbands are buying into a “prophet’s” version of what they must do…perhaps there needs to be a parting of the ways. A husband and wife should be on the same page, and husbands should love their wives…not treat them as something lesser.

    Again, I know this isn’t probably helpful in any real sense, but I’ve seen on a smaller scale what this kind of madness can do.

  5. Hi all! Buffy & I want to thank you so much for starting this blog and for your support!

    This journey, with our husbands has been difficult for us, so when I found your old blogs, @ stupid church, it was an answer to prayer! Wow, to find other people like us who’ve actually had problems @ gracehead and with Speed.

    This is just some of the stuff that we get to hear from our husbands. I came across this correspondance between Buffy’s husband Jim & Speed (the guy who calls himself Timothy the prophet).

    This is Speed talking to Jim but not sure what this first part is about.

    Sorry to hear all of this…wait on the Lord.

    Oh and PLEASE clarify I WAS NEVER MARRIED BEFORE!!! Brenda is a disgruntled ex-girlfriend from my youth.

    Jim, Buffy’s faith is not your concern…it is the Lord’s. Let her be. Taking care of her and loving her is your concern, but her faith is between her and the Lord.

    Jim your actions have NOTHING!!! to do with her faith or whether she is raptured for that matter. Her faith is her own and her decisions – her own… it is between her and the Lord alone. HE ALONE searches the hearts and minds and HE ALONE is the Author and Finisher! Trust Him! Stop blaming yourself as Buffy is blaming you. Her lack of trust and/or belief is her own. Let her seek the Lord and you do the same. This is the only true advice we can give… and this: listen NOT to others – LISTEN to GOD and submit to HIM.

    Jim stop blaming yourself for everything that is wrong in others, that which is wrong in you is between you and The Father and His grace is sufficient as He overcame your wrong doings on the cross or are you going to say “Lord it isn’t enough”

    The best advice you can give Buffy is to STOP listening to friends and the world and to seek the truth of The Lord’s Word in the Letters by seeking the Lord! and then reading them for herself and praying. Until she sincerely seeks the Lord and reads them herself and stops listening to the world and scoffers, the blinders will remain in place. Only Christ can remove the veil.

    I could answer each of her questions and give her all the numbers about the Letters and the many many people who have been blessed, healed, and brought to Christ by them and even give her tons of verses backing up each Letter…but none of it will matter until she seeks the Truth of the Letters herself. The Proof of the Letters are the Letters! One only need read them and let the Lord lead or even compare them to the news. But for those who let go and take them as they are, do need the outward proof as the Spirit reveals to them just Who wrote them.

    Wait Jim… and pray and above all trust!

    I Love you and your wife,
    Timothy(the Lord’s servant and yours and your families.)

    p.s. Will be praying for you both.

    Talk about being judgmental, ugly, and what about giving advice but then saying don’t listen to others only to God. Isn’t that a double entendre? This is the stuff that we hear all of the time.

    What do ya’ll think of this?

  6. “What do ya’ll think of this?” (Heather)

    What bothers me about the letter is that Speedy is giving Buffy’s husband (Jim) advice – the but the advice never leans towards any human interaction – nor fixing the problems within his own household (including his own marriage). It’s all ‘trust in the Lord’ and nothing to do with ‘treat others how you want to be treated’. To me, the focus is squarely on God and not on the relationship he has with his wife. This is a problem.

    The problem is – it makes it seem like faith in God is more important than one’s relationship with other people. I think we can judge one’s faith in God BY their relationships with other people.

    For example, if I start treating my wife in an very cold manner – even hurt her on a regular basis – then I am not being ‘loving’. One could say – any onlooker to the situation – that is a ‘bad’ husband. My behavior would reflect the true me – who I really am – no matter what i think about God or his paradise or his judgements or whatever.

    I can believe a lot of things about God – but it doesn’t matter – the whole law and prophets hang upon the idea ‘treat other the way you want to be treated’. God’s concerned with us and our treatment of one another first and foremost – not over some ego trip concerning what we think He is like – He knows who He is – He doesn’t need us to remind Him of that. But we as humans need some guidance in our dealings with one another – this is God’s core concern it would seem.

    I think these letters of Speed are not really the misleading part – the misleading part seems to be the authority ascribed to Speed. The people in the group under him seem to think his ‘prophetness’ is needed for their faith to continue – and be strong…man, are they wrong. Many people serve God without the help of Speed and his letters – and seem to lead great lives. Speedy (the prophet) is not essential for someone’s faith to be strong and vibrant – and this is what your husband’s need to remember – seems they have forgotten this.

    But the real concern now is that Speedy seems to not address the fact relationships are falling into to ruins – this is not a concern of God’s for some reason – just faith is. Once Buffy’s faith is in the right place (in trusting him and his letters) then all these things will work out. Fact is, the opposite is also true. If Jim just leaves Speedy’s control and works on his relationship – likely all the problems go away (as it once was).

  7. wonder what the bible says about prophets…

    Christ himself predicted that such abuses would arise (Matt. 24:11, 24). Eventually it became necessary for the church to establish regulations that would control not only the prophet’s dress and teaching (I Cor. 11:4; 14:29-30), but also how long he could stay in any one place without being judged a false prophet (Hermas, Mandate 11:1-21; Didache 11).

    Didache talks about a false prophet will name themselves prophet while a true one is called that through their disciples and the greatest example is Christ.

    snake oil salesmen are nothing new, but i hope to provide some healing here.

  8. societyvs, this is a great thing you’re doing here. thank you

    Heather & Buffy, this is an ugly and nasty situation you are both in. there’s just no way to paint it any other way. what makes this particularly difficult is the amount of truth that is interwoven with the lies. these types of guys are the worst of the worst IMO. they infect the greater church from within like a desease…a cancer. unfortunately, debate and scripture-offs won’t do much with people who have been infected. love, patients, and prayer is all i can offer you two.

    sorry i can’t offer you any more than that. stay strong and whatever you do, don’t buy in to this poison.

  9. What bothers me about the letter is that Speedy is giving Buffy’s husband (Jim) advice but the advice never leans towards any human interaction – nor fixing the problems within his own household

    Good eye, svs. It’s lacking in decisive biblical parallels.

    A few more points:

    Speedy/Him-othy, whatever says —but none of it will matter until she seeks the Truth of the Letters herself

    I get a red alert from the authority he gives to his Letters. Claiming equality with Scripture shows he is taking his subjective, unverifiable truth and giving it the veneer of absolute truth. In contrast, Rick Joyner had a series of powerful visions that he put to paper and eventually they became “The Final Quest”. His story is replete with decisive biblical parallels, but he doesn’t dare give his work that kind of authority. This is the most creepy and insidious of the deviations. Could his plan be to segue into messianic territory himself? Just a thought.

    Also, why do these men need Speedy? The Word is there for all to see. Another dimension of cultism is this need above all things to be with the Prophet, whoever he might be in that cult. God did not reach out to His creation through the occult, which comes from the root word meaning to hide something. There is nothing new under the sun. Under a rock, maybe…

    Speedy/Him-othy—I could answer each of her questions and give her all the numbers about the Letters and the many many people who have been blessed, healed, and brought to Christ by them and even give her tons of verses backing up each Letter but none of it will matter until she seeks the Truth of the Letters herself

    He could answer, but he doesn’t? Promising an adequate response is not the same as giving one. If the presence of God is in this man, then he would not hesitate to spit it out. Jesus never gave a circular explanation like the one above. God’s Word is perfect. This Prophet is not.

    Our prayers are with the wives that their husbands’ eyes be opened. Psychologically, there must be something these men are craving that they follow this man. Any ideas?

  10. I visit that blog every couple days. The “prophets” writings are fascinating… like a train wreck.

    Sad.

    I have always thought that the poor guy doesn’t even has a clue as to who God is. Not saying I do, but I know his version isn’t someone I feel drawn to. If God is truly the source of our spirit, and spirit calls spirit, I don’t think people need to be frightened to the point of forcing themselves to find God. Besides, he has already found us, all we need to do is adjust our thinking to realize it.

  11. I’m no real expert on cults or cult leaders. I’m just someone who loves God and tries to follow him the best I can. I’ve interacted with SVS here sporadically, as well as on SCP, Bold Grace, and Naked Pastor’s site, for the last couple years (combination). I’ve read some of Speedy/Timothy’s (he’ll be referred to as “Speedothy” by me from here on) stuff over at Gracehead; and virtually all of it irks me.

    listen NOT to others – LISTEN to GOD and submit to HIM. (Speedothy)

    It’s ironic he later recommends reading the “letters” he’s supposedly “received” from God himself…as if prayer and searching the Bible wouldn’t be enough.

    The lack of suggesting human interaction is also quite disturbing; I agree. Even Jesus preached “the Golden Rule”.

    The Proof of the Letters are the Letters! (Speedothy)

    Lie. Absolute rubbish. To me, it looks like Speedothy wants to replace the Bible with his letters — peddling “another gospel”, perhaps?

    I hope/pray that one day true freedom will be found.

  12. Hi everyone! Buffy & I can’t thank you enough for having this blog and for all of the support. We have been looking for you all for a year so God is faithful & timely. We are new to blogging so bare with our retartdesness.

    It’s been so hard to deal with this with Trent. I’ve never felt so alone in my marriage. It’s sad. We used to be best friends, in fact, I gave Trent the name Gracehead back in the day. Buffy’s husband Jim was introduced to this group by Trent. It was Buffy’s idea that Jim hang around Trent because he is a godly man. Well little did we know what Trent is into.

    Trent doesn’t like me to talk about this to anyone, he calls it gossip. We call it bringing the darkness into the light.

    Trent swallowed the kool-aide around January 07 and he wanted me to drink it & I tried it but knew right away that it was poison. Sound familar? Can you say Jonestown? Well, hopefully it doesn’t turn that way but it sure has the potential with the rate they are all frothing @ the mouth just waiting to hear what the “word” is. Oh, Speedothy love it! He’s a real wackjob and Trent really believes that those “letters” are true dictation of the Lord Jesus. I don’t understand how you can go from being a gracehead to a lawhead. It makes me wonder about his salvation but I hope that he’s saved in all.

    Many times I’ve wanted to write to Speedothy and or go up to NE and give him the right act but that’s not Christian is it? HA! He’s predicted that Obama will win the election so if McCain wins then can I be the first to throw the stone? HA! Did I say that out loud?! oops!

    Oh, did y’all (I’m from the south & now live in Texas) know that the end of the world is @ the end of 2011? Don’t these people see the common characteristics to other cults? It’s so clear to me and I’m no genius.

    Well, thanks again for your support! This definitely lightens our load! You guys are great!

    I check Speedothy in the spell check and can you believe that that word doesn’t exist though it should. Thanks!!!!

    HMF

  13. I believe that when someone has a prophecy or dream, it is always for themselves.

    I would ask your husbands what are they missing in their lives. A possible reason they are into this type of ministry is that they are looking for acceptance and guidance. This type of supernatural guidance sound authoritative, but is usually petty and harsh. So they “go off the deep end” so to speak, or give themselves to it obsessively. They don’t know where to draw a healthy line. Spiritual addictions which destroy families are subtle and people never think they are dangerous.

    As the Just1 said “This is a form of abuse that is extremely dangerous because it gives the victim the impression that to stand up against this abuse is to be fighting against the will of God.”

    A great book to read is “Boundaries” by Dr Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend. It teach us how to set effective boundaries in our lives. These boundaries are what ground us and guide us. When you have no internal boundaries, a person will not be given to addictions but to what Paul calls moderation. All things are permissible but not all things are profitable. no pun intended 🙂

  14. “Increasingly, tongues were being spoken without restraint and without interpretation. People were being prayed over, but it didn’t seem supportive but more a way to try to hold them tighter. We got more messages about how we won’t be sick and we won’t have to worry about money as long as we have faith (with the subtext being that if you are sick or have money problems, your faith was weak and you did something wrong).” (Deacon Blue)

    Sounds like we were in the same church. Except for a lot of years, I was the one handing out the kool-aid. It was a long process, but I finally got away from the thinking that fed the controlling atmosphere, which we called ministry.

    As for the two “husbands” involved with Speedy, I suspect that there is more going on here than just a fascination for a certain minister and his prophetic utterances. The behaviour is an indication of a deeper issue.

  15. “Oh, did y’all (I’m from the south & now live in Texas) know that the end of the world is @ the end of 2011? Don’t these people see the common characteristics to other cults? It’s so clear to me and I’m no genius.” (Heather)

    So they’re into to making those predictions – which is what Jim Jordan figured. It is clear to me these people have not studied other cult groups and have a serious love for the ‘end times’. But the end times means nothing when you think about it – it either happens or doesn’t – but we are required to live by the law of love no matter what. The end times stuff doesn’t change anything concerning our treatment of one another – and if it does – this is a sign the miniistry these people are under is giving ‘bad teachings’.

    Also, everyone knows that 2012 is when the end times is – doesn’t Speedy ever read the Mayan calendar? LOL

    I think one of the things we can do is monitor what it is being said over there (which I might try to do here on this blog) and maybe even talk to these people about what they believe or think concerning their faith – they do run a blog at Gracehead after all. I think if we can get to know these people – and learn what the draw for Trent and Jim (Buffy’s husband) was – then we can speak a little clearer into the situation. It’s the only plan I have come up with so far.

    “I visit that blog every couple days. The “prophets” writings are fascinating… like a train wreck. ” (Bruce)

    I never knew you were still in touch with that group – you know a lot more concerning this than I thought. What do you think of my idea to converse with them over there?

  16. @ thejust1:

    “Sounds like we were in the same church. Except for a lot of years, I was the one handing out the kool-aid. It was a long process, but I finally got away from the thinking that fed the controlling atmosphere, which we called ministry.”
    ————————————–

    I am so glad to hear that you moved beyond that. It gives me hope not only for the two wives who are facing what inspired this whole blog post and commentary…but also for the people I knew in the little congregation I spoke of. I think the pastor is “gone” and the chances of him seeing anything but further self-glorification are slim, but I know there are good people whom I met there that are now in associate positions and such doing ministry work. I hope so much for them to wake up and see that what they learned from the Bible and what led them to be born again is being perverted.

  17. Hey everyone!

    Buffy & I are not very good, @ this blogging stuff, and frankly I don’t know how much to say or not say because it is all so new & awkward. It may come across like we’re writing a book or writing a letter or that we may sound really emotional, really out there, really scattered and so on but we are so happy to have found ya. We know that the Lord Jesus is responsible for us finding you so we’ll leave it in His hands. Thanks for your patience!

    Once upon a time, Trent & I are went and are going to a marriage counselor & we had to visit the Dr. separately & today was my visit. So the Dr. asked me about Speedothy so we chatted a bit about that. In our last session with the Doc, the Doc asked one thing that I would like Trent to give up for a week and, of course, I said Speedothy. So the plan was for Trent to come to me, before he contacted the cult, for that entire week. Not only did he not do that but he also lied about not contacting the cult. I have proof that he talked with the group that week. The lies are affecting our marriage for the worst & Trent doesn’t see that @ all & I don’t know how to deal with that boundary issue. In the past, if I bring up something like that it is bad.

    Okay so the Dr. listened and gave some real good practical advice in all. But what I can’t seem to wrap my brain around is that our marriage IS different now and Trent REALLY thinks that he and I believe 95% of the same. Weird. Trent also believes that the “letters” speak, to his core, in a way that NO ONE has, not even me. That hurts my feelings!!!

    I get sucked in arguments, about whether or not Speedothy is true or false, whether or not Speedothy dictates direct words of God/Jesus, and so on. The adrenal, cortisol, and blood pressure go off the charts so I usually end the conversation and then he accuses me of not respecting him. It’s an ugly go around.

    Buffy’s husband says the exact same things that Trent does. We just have to remember that it’s all part of the brainwashing, however, she and I are still awakening to these facts. It’s been a real shocker to know that your husband is no longer one in the Spirit or like-minded with you. They are in much denial and none of what they say makes sense.

    It’s crazy & how can we get our husbands back or are they gone forever?

  18. None of us (nor anyone, really, no matter how many degrees and letters they have after their names) can tell you or Buffy “how” to get your husbands out of this trap. Nor can any of us know whether they are “gone forever.’

    I do think, though, that you need to keep all reasonable options on the table. Sometimes, alcoholics have to be allowed to hit rock bottom before they see the light. Sometimes, addicts need to be subjected to an intervention situation. Etc.

    I don’t know all that you’ve done or all that you’ve said to your husbands. I don’t know what is right for you, your relationships or your families.

    But it might be necessary to leave. Or perhaps simply necessary to say that you will leave. Or perhaps find someone they will listen to who will point out what the Word of God says and how it warns of people like Speedothy and does NOT talk about anyone like that coming around speaking FOR Jesus.

    Spouses who don’t take counseling seriously and who do things behind their spouse’s back and lie about it are, frankly, not trustworthy. I’m not saying that means you must leave nor does it mean you must abandon your love for the other person. But it does mean that you are in a situation where your spouse, quite frankly, may now be your enemy (whether forever or just a short time, who can say), because your husbands are certainly doing you emotional damage at the very least.

    I can’t advise on specifics; I can only say that you may have to go consider something toward the more drastic end of the spectrum to get them back or to preserve your own well being.

  19. “It’s been a real shocker to know that your husband is no longer one in the Spirit or like-minded with you. They are in much denial and none of what they say makes sense.

    It’s crazy & how can we get our husbands back or are they gone forever?” -Heather

    wow! drama! i agree with the deacon on this as “Spouses who don’t take counseling seriously and who do things behind their spouse’s back and lie about it are, frankly, not trustworthy.”

    my only advice is to keep the hubbies talking and hang out as much as possible. go to local bible studies or just out on the town, no theology involved. try to reconnect in Real Time vs. cyber-space. prolly the cult-ish behavior is part of a cyber-addiction as most of these things are usually compiled by something else.

    most of all keep with professional help. i’m not trained in psychology nor is most of the people on here… keep with that councilor and if he isn’t getting the help you think he needs, at least you’re getting good practical advice.

    focus on you, you can’t change people, only how you react to them.

  20. ‘It’s crazy & how can we get our husbands back or are they gone forever?” (Heather)

    I am not one to give up hope – things can change and do in some of these situations – but it may take a while.

    Problem is – Trent doesn’t see the problem that his connection to this ‘cult’ is having on him and his family – namely his relationship to you – and it is a hard thing to change a man’s mind once it is set. I know – I am a man with a wife. Even when my wife is right on something I am too proud to say ‘I was wrong’ (at that very moment of the discussion). However, I usually think about it – let it ruminate in my mind – and realize the errors of my ways and how I can change. This takes time.

    For Trent the problem is part that and likely part religion. What seems to be reinforcing his pride is the justifications he garners from the scriptures – or how he uses them in such times. Passages such as these can help re-inforce his thinking:

    Matt 10:34-36 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; and A MAN’S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.”

    Luke 14:26 “If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple”

    He could feel that his faith is more important than his relationship to those within his very household (even his wife) – and justify his behavior because he feels he is contending for his relationship with God. He’d be wrong – but this could factor into the way he is thinking and how he can justify it.

    What he fails to realize in all of this is he is hurting someone else – to protect his God and prophet for some reason. God does not require this protecting – nor does his faith – since he is not being persecuted for anything he believes. He may feel like he is being persecuted – but it’s not really persecution when your actions of hurting others is the reason someone is bothered with you. It’s a self defense mechanism used by certain Christians to defend their bogus actions – I have seen it quite a few times.

    I feel this is the case with the people following Speedy and whose faith seemed to be tied up in this person’s writings. If they all started leaving Speedy most likely a prophecy would come out (from Speedy) enticing them back – like the elect should not leave this calling or give them some kind of warning about going (that causes fear in them – from Jesus).

    They really are in deep when you think about it – in their minds they stand to lose their very faith or salvation by turning their backs – unthinkable for any follower in this faith.

    They trust this man/self proclaimed prophet with their very being – their very existence in some ways. They have no ample reason to leave – no one is convincing them otherwise – Speedy and others are making sure of that with their ‘blocking of debate’ with those prophecies…if you think about…they are all scared to be ‘wrong’. Anyone that questions them and makes good points – is usually out of the ‘circle of trust’. As you now find yourself Heather.

    The key seems to be being able to get to these people and develop logical points concerning the writings they claim are from God. You are correct about this Obama thing – if Obama loses – Speedy’s stock sinks a lot (this was a risk Speedy was willing to take of course, Obama is like double digits ahead in the latest polls when this prophecy was made – not really all that prophetic). But the key is finding those loopholes in Speedy’s visions and writings – they exist – of this I am sure. Once people start to lose some faith in their leader – they start to question him. Trent needs to be nudged to that point.

    However, from reading some of the recent stuff – this is going to be tough – Trent believes in a type of ‘going by his feelings’ faith (or being led by the spirit as he would call it). He may have trouble distinguishing his feelings from actually being led by God – he also seems to question this aspect of his faith. The thing is, his feelings have led him right into Speedy’s lap – Speedy plays on emotions – namely fear. One can see the trap these people who follow Speedy find themselves in.

    Key things seem to be – finding the loopholes in Speedy’s stuff and getting your husbands to move from a feelings based faith to one of more rationale.

  21. Since I look at things from a Jewish point of view, I can’t help but interject into this conversation …..

    Let’s go back about 2000 years. We find a nice Jewish wife named Hannah who is complaining to her friends that her husband is hanging out with some guy named Paul who claims his letters are the words of God yet which teach things completely contrary to the teachings of Torah….

    Torah tells us in Deuteronomy 4:2 that we are not to add to these teachings, which is why we consider the Prophets and the Writings to be of lesser value. This same verse continues on with a teaching heard over and over in Torah, the Writings, and the Prophets….to observe the commandments of Adonai, you God, that I command you. The passage then tells us: you shall safeguard and perform them, for it is your wisdom and discernment in the eyes of the peoples, who shall hear these decrees and who shall say, “Surely a wise and discerning people is this great nation!” For which is a great nation that has a God Who is close to it, as is Adonai, our God, whenever we call to God? And which is a great nation that has righteous decrees and ordinances, such as this entire Torah that I place before you this day?”

    ….Yet this teacher Paul, has told her husband that Torah leads to sin, that it cannot be followed, that he needs an intermediary because God, Who Torah teaches is close at hand, is really beyond reach because of sin that can never be removed without this intermediary. Her husband no longer wants to go to synagogue on Shabbat but instead thinks he needs to celebrate the ‘first day’ , something which isn’t done in her community. She is also concerned because this teacher doesn’t even value marriage but instead tells her husband that since he is married to her he needs to stay with her, but for those who aren’t married, unless they can’t control their urges, they should not marry at all! She’s asking your advice on what she should do. What do you tell her?

    What about today? Do you target husbands or wives from other religions for evangelism? What do you think happens within their homes if you do? Is it only a problem when the shoe is on the other foot?

    BTW, my utmost sympathies are with the two women involved here, yet I have to wonder, my people, my children, are targeted for evangelism all the time. Do we have their sympathies?

  22. “So the plan was for Trent to come to me, before he contacted the cult, for that entire week. Not only did he not do that but he also lied about not contacting the cult. I have proof that he talked with the group that week. The lies are affecting our marriage for the worst & Trent doesn’t see that @ all & I don’t know how to deal with that boundary issue” (Heather)

    I believe there is hope for your situation and all is not lost. But, may I suggest that, before you do anything to make some kind of statement or an ultimatum to your husband, that you do some research. Take your time there is no need to rush.

    You are dealing with an individual, that you obviously care about, that is exhibiting the characteristics of an addict. You may want to read information on addictions. Principles on how to deal with an addicted individual can be found in a number of places. Although this is not a drug, or alcohol, or gambling addicted individual, it is helpful to read information on these addictions. This will give you ideas on the behaviours that an addicted individual will display.

    Also, because he is in an addicted state, discussions regarding the nature of his addiction (Speedothy in this case) will only create a craving and will fuel his desire to satisfy his craving. So, I suggest that you do not engage in conversations regarding Speedothy or religion or theology. At least not until you have a better understanding of the behaviours and mindset of an addict.

    Hope this helps.

  23. To piggy back on what theJust1 said about addictions. I read something about the 2 factors that motivate us in life, and they come in many different themes but ultimately the same idea.
    1. The pursuit of pleasure
    2. The avoidance of pain

    Most think pleasure is the bigger motivator, but its actually avoiding pain. It sounds like the Husbands reason for following this “Crazed” form of faith is to avoid the pain of damnation. It is sad to say, but unless he gets to the point where losing his family hurts more than losing his skewed idea of faith, he will continue along his present course. Addicts leave their addiction when the pain of their addiction is more than the pain of quitting their addiction, not a minute before. Just look at a speaker at a 12 step program. He/she gets up and speaks about the pain of their addiction and how they would never go back, and everyone in the group nods in agreement(Pain principle), then the speaker talks of how much better their life has begun since quitting their addiction(pleasure principle). Funny thing is we are all motivated by this concept for pretty much everything we do. I believe your choice as wife is to introduce these concepts to him and if he doesnt change you must be strong and leave him. If the ship is going to crash and no one is willing to change course then the only option is to save yourself and children if you have any. Pray for resolve and then act on it.

  24. Heather,

    I don’t want to write about Trent or Timothy or anyone else. I wanted just to talk about you, because based on what you have shared, in my opinion… you are the one that most matters at this moment.

    Trent and Timothy and the others are going to do what they want to do and you can’t change them. As a matter of fact, there’s nothing you can do to change them. Someone has already mentioned addiction, and ironically I recently wrote about it on my site. What I have learned in my own experience is that those of us surrounded by narcissism (which this clearly is and which addicts also suffer from) cannot control the other person, the only thing… let me repeat… the ONLY THING you CAN DO is learn to take better care of yourself.

    When I was in a place where the other person in my life had become unmanageable, I had a choice… to think about how I could change them and make things better OR to begin to think about me. Here’s what thinking about the other person looked like for me:

    • I would make excuses for their behavior. This was because I was ashamed and embarrassed of them.
    • I would bargain with them, they would promise to change, and I would eventually be disappointed again.
    • I would deny what they were doing and pretend things were different than what they really were.
    • I would get angry with them and with myself. This only added to my stress level.
    • I would try to love them more – I would go above and beyond to try and please them and make them happy.
    • I would place demands on them and give them ultimatums. This only pushed them farther away and disappointed me.
    • I would try to manipulate them with guilt and shame. This might work for the short term as they assured me they loved me (which made me feel better), but it never resulted in changing the situation.

    So you may say, “Steve, you are painting a pretty hopeless picture?” And you’d be right. I am.

    It wasn’t until I saw that the things I was trying to do to change my addict were hopeless that real change started to occur. Not in my addict, but in me! Hopelessness can be a very powerful thing if we embrace it.

    Pema Chodron (my favorite Buddhist Nun) says this: “This present moment is our perfect teacher.” That has been a life-changing sentence for me. I guess my encouragement to you is to look at this present moment in your life and try to discover what it is trying to teach you. Right now, what do you need to learn about yourself through this journey you are on and what is it trying to teach you right now.

    I have almost had to break my life down into a series of “present moments”. When I stop living this way I get caught up in trying to change things and people rather than focusing on the real issue – which is changing me, my behavior, getting out of life what I really want.

    My hope for you in the midst of this moment is that you would find contentment and happiness.

  25. I have to admit – Steve’s comments seem very well rounded and meaningful to me also – we really can’t change people – but we can change ourselves.

    I think what I wrote was more a diagnosis of the situation – and I am not sure that someone will break through to these people who are stuck in their ways…they are hard to convince since they are not open to true dialogue on these issues.

    I think Steve and a host of others are right here – with the idea of doing what’s best for you and your health…if he isn’t going to care about it – take the steps towards healing (maybe this will motivate him to want the same thing). Learn about his ‘addcition’ as someone mentioned – understanding his triggers might help you out in some way.

    My hope is that you are helped in this scenario – maybe by yourself becoming more whole that Trent also wakes up from his treatment of you. If not, at least you we’re helped in the process – which is really that which is in your control.

    I do not think it is impossible for Trent and others to turn around – these things are possible – but without much movement in the dicreditation of Speedy – not much will move. But you can always take care of yourself – this much is in your hands.

  26. I too endorse the “sefl-preservation” doctrine that has been suggested here.

    I have an older brother who is a heroin addict. He is now in his 40’s and completely clean for the first time. What has been relevant to me and applicable to this discussion, is how my parents have dealt with him over the years. Early on they tried every “help” method known to man with little to no avail. His addiction continued and landed him in and out of jail for much of his life. Their love for him however never failed…not once. However, they did reach a point, and it was actually fairly early in this long process, where they had to come to the heart-wrenching discision of setting up boundaries between his addiction (which includes him…one and the same) and themselves. This took form in that he was no longer welcome to live in their house. They no longer supported him financially…I’m sure you get the picture.

    Even though he is now clean…for now (we’ve seen this before, though this one does look promising), and this is a wonderful thing, the damages done are irriversable. He is nowhere near having a relationship with God, his relationship with the our family is strained and fraid at best. But imagine how much worse it had been for the entire family (I have three other siblings, most now with their own families) had my parents not set up those clear boundries? They would have become consumed as co-dependants to his addiction and been inaffective parents to the rest of the family.

    I can’t remember if you’ve mentioned if there are kids involoved in your relationships or possibly in the future, but if not for your sake, please know that the ripple effects of this sort of thing is never contained to just one or two people. This is the horribly selfish nature of an addiction to poisons.

    May you find streangth within and amongst yoursleves. Find a community of believers who will encourage you and walk with you through this dark valley. Know this…you are not alone.

    If you do find an opportunity to confront your husband in love, ask him this: “If our marriage was sealed by God as the foundation, where have you gone? I haven’t moved, and surely God hasn’t. How can this marriage be rooted in God when you can’t even be honest with me?” His answers should give you a pretty clear picture of where his priorities lie.

  27. Yael, there are complete differences with Speedothy and Paul.

    Yael–Torah tells us in Deuteronomy 4:2 that we are not to add to these teachings

    From “The Torah: A Modern Commentary” edited by W.G. Plaut. Pg. 1339
    [Yes, I have a Torah, too]

    Verse two talks of the laws of chukim (man to God) and mishpatim (man to fellow man). In other words, the first five and the second five of the 10 Commandments. Has Christianity added anything to that? Nope.

    Let’s go back about 2000 years. We find a nice Jewish wife named Hannah who is complaining to her friends that her husband is hanging out with some guy named Paul who claims his letters are the words of God yet which teach things completely contrary to the teachings of Torah….

    Paul never claimed his letters were the word of God. Only after careful scholarly review over decades were they regarded as such. This review’ s criteria compared them to the Hebrew Scriptures. Jude’s NT letter written at the end of the first century was the first such declaration that Paul’s letters were scriptural.

    Yet this teacher Paul, has told her husband that Torah leads to sin

    No. The Law leads to sin because WE are sinful, not because the Law itself leads us to sin. Adam and Eve were given one rule. They broke it, because we abuse our free will. This accusation of Paul is a semantic complaint, nothing more.

    You have experienced odious evangelists. Fine. But that shouldn’t lead you to equate Speedothy’s openly cultic activities with authentic Christianity.

    You shouldn’t look at things from a Jewish point of view, but from God’s point of view. The problem here is that Speedothy (I prefer the nickname HIM-othy) has USURPED God’s point of view. That is the problem…..and always has been.

  28. Pingback: Caught in a Cult? Can’t Walk out? | The Moral Science Club

  29. Sarah,
    Thank you. I assumed I would totally be ignored so I am VERY impressed that you expressed your sympathies.

    Jim,
    I think Speedothy is totally wrong in what he is doing, however, if you go around teaching your gospel with no regard for the home lives you may be disrupting, than you are no different.

    You have a Torah, too! Wow! It’s a small world! Let me post a description of this commentary from which you quote:

    But from a religious point of view this book is, in most places, a deep disappointment. While Plaut offers this as a book for religious Reform Jews, it spends most of its time disparaging the laws in the Torah as outdated anachronisms that have no place in the lives of Jews today.

    What a surprise that you, Jim, chose this book as your guide to Torah being as how you speak so highly of the law! Well, you’ll have to excuse me if I dismiss his take on this verse about the law and instead hold to the traditional interpretation of this verse as Deuteronomy being the end of our sacred text with the Writings and Prophets being on a lesser level.

    OK, we’ll go with your take that Paul only claims we are unable to keep the law. Yet Deuteronomy tells us that the law isn’t hard to keep at all, that the law gives life, that the law isn’t hard to understand, that we don’t need to look to heaven for help but instead the law is right there in our hearts and in our mouths for us to perform. (I’m not giving references here because they are numerous and a Torah scholar such as yourself can easily find them just by reading.) So, is God lying or is Paul lying? They can’t both be right! Either the law is impossible to keep or it is not, either we need help from heaven or we do not.

    A Jewish husband going off after Paul is leaving his wife in the exact same spot as Speedothy has left these two women. His teachings don’t mesh with what their sacred texts teach just as Paul’s don’t mesh with ours. You think Speedothy and Paul are different because YOU hold to the teachings of Paul. As a Jew I see little difference.

    All through history followers of Paul have attempted to convince Jews OUR sacred texts mean something other than what we have read and have been taught AND that we Jews should instead follow the teachings from Paul’s letters. The similarity in these cases is quite glaring. The difference is only as I said, with the shoe on the other foot all of the sudden this is a problem, but when it is YOU doing it to other people its not a problem at all! How convenient! Don’t you think if I asked Speedothy he would also rationalize his taking people away from Christianity, claiming his is true Christianity, just as many Christians rationalize taking Jews away from Torah, by claiming their view is the true Torah? Don’t get me wrong, I think Speedothy has gone off the deep end, but I don’t see how what he’s doing is any different than what was done by Paul 2000 years ago nor what is done by many Christians today.

    You have experienced odious evangelists. Fine. But that shouldn’t lead you to equate Speedothy’s openly cultic activities with authentic Christianity.

    No, Jim. I have run into ordinary ‘authentic’ Christians, just like you, who think that all of God and religion belong to you and that you have the right and obligation to peddle this stuff on those around you, no matter their religious background, no matter that you might be introducing the same kind of chaos being spoken of in this thread into their homes! What do you think happened to the families of those apostate Jews you so love to hold up as shining examples? Don’t you think their families feel the same as these two women? Do you feel any sympathy for these Jewish families?

    BTW, Bruce justified his perpetuation of Christian stereotyping of Jewish sages by telling me that I’m bothered because I look at things from a Jewish point of view. I found it incredulous that not one person called him on such a lame excuse for rude behavior, but I don’t suppose I should have been surprised…. How ironic that I am now called out for repeating his words! People are amazing.

    I won’t claim to look at things from God’s point of view since I’m not God, nor am I going to go read whatever response you are putting to all of this on your blog since I know for a fact, you aren’t God either, for all your speaking with such ‘authority’ about what you claim God says and thinks!

  30. Yael,
    You didn’t respond to any of my points.

    I asked Has Christianity added anything to that (10 Commandments)? Nope.

    Your answer – attack the Torah Commentary. I do agree that the contributors play fast and loose with God’s Word but this verse is a straightforward interpretation.

    I stated that Paul didn’t give his letters the stamp of Holy Writ a la Speedothy and showed how the Law leading to sin is not the fault of the Law. You replied with aesthetic complaints about breaking up a household as if a Jewish husband becoming a believer in Christ would do just that.

    I know this is aside from the pressing problem these two wives face, but I do take issue with you equating moral equivalence to Speedothy and Jesus Christ. My prayers are for them. They are in need of deliverance from this terrible spell, unlike the Jews needing some such deliverance from the Christians.

  31. In principle, I see where Yaelbatsarah is going in trying to spin parallels between was was done some 2,000 years ago that sometimes pit spouses and families against each other with regard to faith and saying that it’s hypocritical for us to assume Speedy is any different, worse or better…but there are some important points to note:

    Paul seemed to prefer NOT to be having married men out there on the trail preaching the gospel and leaving their families behind. He wrote that he would rather someone be celibate and devoted to spreading the good news. Better, he said, to be married and not to sin in the flesh, but best to not have sex (or marriage) to muddle things up at all. It didn’t seem to be his goal or desire to pit one spouse against another. In fact, Christian spouses were urged to stay WITH their spouses even if they didn’t themselves also convert. Speedy seems to be saying choose me over your wife.

    Paul was not spreading his own gospel nor claiming that Jesus was directly dictating to him. Speed is overriding the existing gospel, not providing teaching about it. Paul was teaching, not putting himself on a pedestal.

    I’d also take exception to the notion that the law is easy to follow. If it’s so damn easy, why does just about everyone break it. Please don’t try to convince me that anything more than a tiny fraction of Jews actually keeps the law in it entirety or anywhere close to it. Coveting alone is something that most of us humans do out of damn-near jealous reflex.

    Just a few thoughts. But I think it’s important here to focus on the fact that we have two women here whose husbands aren’t just going out and preaching a religion to which they have converted. They are preaching a twisted version of the religion the spouses once shared…they are not honoring their wives…and they are lying to them about what they are doing at times.

    While clearly a little debate had arisen within this commentary, I think we need to try to avoid taking this too off topic. Not sure that we have yet, as it may be useful to make sure we aren’t being hypocritical in our views of Speedy, but I’m just saying we should be careful not to take our eyes off the goal of this post (and commentary) to try to provide support and possibly useful advice.

  32. JIm,
    I did too respond. You claim this verse I quoted in Deuteronomy speaks to the 10 commandments which you also claim Christianity keeps. I said your commentary is not the traditional view of this verse but that this verse instead is our basis for saying that only the five books of Torah are treated with the highest reverence. How anyone can claim that the 10 commandments are the sum total of the teaching of Five books is beyond my comprehension, but people are free to claim what they want. The rest of us are also free to reject their claim.

    You claimed my first point on the teachings of Paul were not what Paul taught but that Paul taught the law cannot be kept. So, I said fine and talked about your point instead of mine. You said Paul taught that the law cannot be kept; I pointed out that Deuteronomy teaches the law CAN be kept. So, either God lied in Deuteronomy when God said we could keep it, that it isn’t even hard to keep, or Paul lied when he said people could not keep the law. Either God lied when God said we don’t need to look to heaven for help in keeping the law, or Paul lied when he said we needed Jesus to help us. They can’t both be true.

    How is this not responding to your points?

    I can’t help it if you can’t see that a Jewish husband becoming a Christian is going to bring chaos to his home. Perhaps because you think on the basis of having secular Jewish neighbors and reading messianic Jewish literature you are now an expert on Judaism and Jewish homes? It is obvious you refuse to see the damage YOUR religion causes to others but instead can only see the faults in others. Some surprise there…..

    You take issue with me giving moral equivalency to Speedothy and Jesus? Where did I mention Jesus? I spoke only of Paul and his writings which teach against my sacred texts since this is what you are claiming Speedy does, write letters which speak against Christianity. Interesting, however, how you take issue with this when your teachings make God and Jesus equivalent, which of course isn’t anything Jews would be bothered by in the least, nothing that would cause problems within an observant Jewish home at all…

    Yeah, we Jews don’t need deliverance from Christians. Not at all. Hey, throughout our history we’ve just been the best of buds now haven’t we? That’s why your Jews for Jesus pals, most of whom aren’t even Jewish, are so busy with their stealth evangelism, right? Because traditional Christianity has such a pristine record with us we’re just so totally open to hearing your message!

    Wow, here I go twisting things around again….Whatever. I will leave you all to saving the lost as defined by you. After all, there is no other ‘authentic’ view in the world than your own, is there?

  33. You said Paul taught that the law cannot be kept; I pointed out that Deuteronomy teaches the law CAN be kept.

    This is your discrepancy? If you mean, by “keeping the law”, that we can hold it in high regard, then you miss Paul’s point. If you mean, by “keeping the law”, that we can live without breaking any of those laws, then you are perfect…or delusional.

    And where did you mention Jesus? You mentioned him when you said Paul taught against your sacred texts. Paul merely expounded on Jesus’s teachings. If you are as anti-Christian as you say, I don’t understand the defensive remark, “Where did I mention Jesus?” Paul was speaking on the authority of Jesus, thus Paul=Speedothy states that Jesus=Speedothy.

    After all, there is no other ‘authentic’ view in the world than your own, is there?

    I find it odd you break into a discussion on cults to say Christianity is a cult and then take the defensive tactic that I’m a know-it-all. The real thread here is that Speedothy has usurped the role of the Word and God and is convincing others that the only authentic way is through him. Now if you want to say “that sounds like Jesus” you have to show us why we should believe that. We Christians stand on Jesus fulfilling the Law, fulfilling the prophecies of your sacred texts, speaking flawless wisdom across the centuries, and rising from the dead. We believe that Jesus leads us to the one true God, your God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Your point that Christrians breaking their/your own law in the past concerning the treatment of Jews somehow dethrones Jesus is pure propaganda. Now, Speedothy is leading these men into a dark and mysterious brotherhood whose ultimate purpose is yet to be revealed. That’s scary. There is no comparison to be made with Jesus.

    That last point means that this debate is off-topic, Yael, and I won’t comment any more. Thanks for the lively discussion. Shalom.

  34. JIm,
    Between you and Dagoods….good grief.

    All right. How many more lies are you going to attribute to me?

    YOU claim Paul expounds on Jesus’ teachings so therefore YOU make the leap from Paul to Jesus. I did no such thing.

    I never claimed Christianity is a cult. My point is that you see no fault in YOUR religion trying to convince Jews to become Christians even when this goes against Jewish teachings and causes problems within Jewish homes, a fact which YOU refuse to acknowledge.

    That you don’t agree with Jewish teachings is beside the point. The fact is that Christianity is totally against what we read in Torah. That is a FACT. You may think we’re reading the text all wrong but it is still a FACT that Judaism and Christianity DO NOT MIX!

    A Jewish woman whose husband converts to Christianity would be in the same boat as these two women. Yet you see no harm in this since it is YOUR religion on the intruding side of the equation. But, when YOUR religion is on the receiving end of an intrusion, all of the sudden it’s great cause for concern? Let me wipe away my tears.

    Evangelizing other religions is a problem, whether the evangelizer is from some ‘established’ religion or is a nut job. I already said I feel the utmost sympathy for these two women, but I also feel the utmost sympathy for those Jewish families who have had to deal with Christians leading astray their loved ones. Whether you think they were led astray does not matter, Jim. For these families their homes have been invaded.

    You believe what you believe, who cares. But, you have no right to get all bothered on the one hand while claiming total innocence on the other. Try seeing the world through someone else’s eyes for just one minute. Trying to pull people away from the beliefs of their family is WRONG! Whether you are an atheist, a Christian, an Orthodox Jew, a Mormon, a Muslim, I don’t give a damn. Leave people alone.

  35. Yael – I agree with you completely. Most Christians have a difficult time understanding what you are saying because they are so very myopic.

    And is it just me, or when Jim says “Thanks for the lively discussion” and writes “Shalom” at the end of his comment do I read that he, in actuality, means quite the opposite.

  36. Wow, somehow this discussion has turned very ugly. I do realize that everyone must be dealing, with some deep wounds, due to this Himothy/Speedothy, on some level as Buffy & and I are.

    I believe that we all need to be on guard & that we all need to remember that it’s not a battle of flesh & blood but a battle of spiritual principalities. This is what Speedothy, the enemy, and the world, wants from us is to divide over these matters of the Lord. We are one in the Lord!

    Buffy & I have seen a Christian cult specialist, in our area, called http://www.watchman.org. They deal personally, with the David Koresh’s, the Applewhites, and many other dangerous cults. According to the “specialist”, Trent & Jim are involved, in a group, that can potentially go that way. What Buffy & I are here to do is to educate ourselves and to find support and prayer.

    We were given, by Jason, a safe place to come to discuss spiritual matters whatever they may be and we’re very very thankful. We definitely don’t want to misuse this place so we’re trying to be prayerful, about what we say, and what we don’t say. Everyone needs time to react.

    We can definitely speak for ourselves so if you have any questions then please direct them towards us.

    Again, we’re very grateful, for Jason opening up this blog and being supportive to us, in this very difficult time!

    HMF

  37. Paul never claimed his letters were the word of God. Only after careful scholarly review over decades were they regarded as such. (Jim J)

    Wow, is this true, Paul never claimed his writings were the word of God?

  38. “Again, we’re very grateful, for Jason opening up this blog and being supportive to us, in this very difficult time!” (heather)

    More than willing to keep the conversation going – because I think it is helpful to talk about the stuff happening with Speedy and mayb some of the advice might be helpful…plus if Speedy really does go the wrong way – then it’s best we warn others about this guy.

  39. Heather and Buffy,

    I wonder, because this issue has been hinted at in various earlier posts (the idea that your husbands are filling some desperate need with Speedothy), have you asked your husbands what it was they were missing spiritually or otherwise before meeting Speedothy?

    If so, is there any possibility you could share the answer(s), assuming that you got any?

    This seems to be the crux of things. When I became born again, I didn’t realize I was missing anything. It was sort of just a realization finally that I had been a wrong-headed disobedient child of God and that I DID need Jesus. Life had been pretty OK with me prior to being born again. It was an epiphany that moved me to Christ finally.

    It may be that your husbands didn’t feel any particular void in their life before Speedothy…or maybe they did…but clearly he fills some need that they either felt before or discovered since coming into contact with Speedothy.

    Finding out what that need is, and whether it can be redirected in a healthier direction, seems key to me here.

    (By the way, SocietyVs, the more ill-tempered direction this commentary took has got my brain spinning on the topic of evangelists as potential home-wreckers. Would it be allright to life huge chunks of this commentary for a long post of series of posts later this week on my own blog?)

  40. “Would it be allright to life huge chunks of this commentary for a long post of series of posts later this week on my own blog?” (deacon blue)

    Sounds good – I will come over and read what you write out.

  41. “Im curious, is it true that paul never claimed his writings were the word of God?” (John)

    If you want my personal opinion – yes – Paul never made this claim. Paul actually. like the gospels before him, borrows authority for his writings from the Torah/Prophets (in that he is writing about the words of God). Paul does mention he is being led by God – inspired by God even – but his letters are letters – they read like theological breakdowns of Torah/Prophets scriptures.

  42. “have you asked your husbands what it was they were missing spiritually or otherwise before meeting Speedothy?

    If so, is there any possibility you could share the answer(s), assuming that you got any?

    This seems to be the crux of things.” (Deacon Blue)

    Deacon,

    A great friend/pastor of ours has also pointed out this same thing to Buffy & I a few months back. Of course, when I asked Trent about it, he denied to have any other “need” & that nothing was missing spiritually. We got no where except uncomfortable arguing.

    Do you have any other ideas how I can pose that question in a different way to Trent to get more of a look into his soul?

    Thanks!

    Here’s a conversation that Trent, Jim, and a new guy named Charles have had. They met Charles, @ a synagogue, last week while observing a “feast”. How can they come across someone who believes like this Speedothy/Trent/Jim? It’s quite unbelievable! It’s very long.

    My brothers Jim and Trent–

    It was good to meet you guys tonight at Shalom Shalom and to fellowship with the two of you at the restaurant afterwards as well. Elliott, the greyhound, enjoyed meeting you guys, too. It was truly a blessing to talk to you guys. Like me, you guys seem to have a deep hunger for the deeper things of God and Yeshua. I know in this day and age, the spirit of deception is getting poured out so I know the Lord’s commandments about being wise as serpents and as harmless as doves. I also know his commands to test the spirits as well. Trust me, I pray daily for proper discernments! This is just a short email to see if both of you guys get this email and hoping you will respond as well. As far as the 144,000 goes, I was not aware anyone was talking about this just yet. I will have to have a closer look at the site TrumpetCallofGodonline.com after getting some sleep. I am getting too sleepy to look into it tonight! smiling One of you guys talked about an online Bible study you have, is this correct? What nights and times do you have these online Bible studies and what site do I go on to join in? Or will these be answered when I finally go on TrumpetCallofGodonline.com? Is this the site you read concerning Timothy? if not, what is that site called. And why all the questions? Just needing clarification that I heard things right tonight is all. By asking the questions, I can verify that I was listening correctly and heard correctly.

    I know God is starting to show some of the 144,000 who they are. It would be nice if more of us could meet and all that, even if it is online meeting. and my brothers, feel free to ask me questions if you like. I mean, if I’m gonna throw questions your way, the least I should do is allow you to ask me questions as well, right? Right! I live in Lewisville, TX. Where are you guys living? I am pretty sure it is somewhere on this planet. It is truly awesome what God is revealing to some these days, isn’t it? Let’s see if we can all get together from time to time and see what God has to show all of us and say through all of us. Tell me a little more about TrumpetCallofGodonline.com. After going on that site after getting some rest, I will probably be getting back in touch with you guys. Let me know about the Bible study you talked to me about. May God richly bless you, my brothers! Charles James–the deaf guy who hears through CochlearImplants.

    Jim, Trent and Timothy,
    Greetings my dear brothers! Jim and Trent, I am so thankful the two of you showed up at the Friday night group in Dallas this past Friday. Tim, it was good to cyper meet you this morning as well. I hope to get this email out this time. I spent over an hour typing and then suddenly the letter vanished from the screen. When this happens it gets me growling big time! And Trent, for goodness sakes man, don’t you know it ain’t considered safe to read and type while you are driving? God gave us a good dose of common sense but it ain’t worth a darn if you too hardheaded to use it! But if you are okay with it all, then okay. Big smiles Just couldn’t resist giving you a little hard time is all. I am attempting to give you a little background on what the Lord has shown me over the years. By the age of 31, I was completely deaf and hearing aids no longer helped me. In fact, hearing aids had not helped much most of my life. After going deaf, my wife divorced me stating God told her it was not fair for her to be married to a deaf man and therefore she should marry someone with good hearing. In truth, she was pregnant by my best friend and after divorcing me, married him right away. I had grown up a Baptist and by this time I was searching for so much more than what I was finding in the churches. How often had I stood on the outside looking in, just wanting to belong, to be involved. Mostly how I longed to be loved. I believed since I was now deaf, I had nothing to offer anyone in friendship, that I was now a totally unlovable guy. I don’t know how many tears I cried to the Lord just wanting to be loved, to have friends. Unknown to me, God was about to bring a guy named Lonny into my life to teach me more of His truths.

    Lonny taught me how loveable of a person I was, in spite of being deaf. He taught me the many people who rejected me just for being deaf were narrow minded and by rejecting my friendship, they suffered a major loss. One day he said, “God wants me to teach you something else. Don’t tell God how to do His job, don’t tell God when to do His job, and don’t tell God where to do His job. Just let God be God and open up your heart and mind to things you know not of.” I simply shrugged and said, “Okie Dokie! His job’s too complicated anyways.” Then since I could not hear, Lonny told me start repeating the Name of Jesus in my heart and mind until it became a natural thing to do. Soon I found myself singing that name of Jesus day in a day out. In doing this, I soon heard that beautiful heavenly music clearly. I could hear the voice of Jesus clearly. I could hear the other side just fine, it was this world I could not hear in. And then Jesus started talking to me and showing me things that I was very open to and drank down like a man who was dying of spiritual thirst. He showed me many things I had never been taught in church. And then He came to me and I could see Him as clearly as I could any person standing in front of me. He motioned for me to sit down and then showed me things that were almost mind boggling. He asked a few times if I trusted Him and could believe what He showed me. I told him yes, but nothing could have really prepared me. One of the first things He told me was this: “My chosen people, the Jews, are scattered over all the earth. Many do not know of their Jewish heritage. You, Charles, do not know of your own Jewish heritage. Your family lost sight of this heritage over the years and you, my Child, are of the tribe of Levi.” I interjected Him at this point and said, “Hey, wait a minute here. There ain’t no way I can be Jewish. I mean, look at me Jesus! I don’t even look like a Jew!” Jesus asked, “What does a Jew look like?” I answered, “Well they all got big noses don’t they?” Then with a serious look on His face He asked, “How many Jews do you know?” I said, “Two, Barbra Streisand and Steven Spielberg and they got big noses don’t they?” Then He looked at me and asked, “Do you not realize Jews were scattered over the whole face of the earth and they come from different nations and races?” Then He asked, “The 144,000. Where do they come from?” I answered, “Israel, of course. They have to come from Israel.” Jesus shook His head and said, “The 144,000 that I have chosen come from every race and nation throughout the earth. How else can all nations learn of Me?” I thought about it for a moment and said, “Well that makes sense. Why didn’t someone tell me about all this?” Jesus kind of rolled His eyes as He asks, “What do you think I am doing?” I said, “Oh yeah, right!” Suddenly the vision was over and I wrote everything down and thought, “Now who is going to believe all this?” I was simply told not to worry, let it be His problem. So I readily agreed. Then I got to thinking, “Now what exactly does it mean when Jesus set captivity free between His crucifixion and Resurrection?” All I had to do was ask, and boy! Was I about to be shown!

    All this happened in 1995 at the age of 34. One night as fell asleep singing that Name of Jesus, I could feel myself going deeper and deeper into a deep death-like slumber. Suddenly I am with Lonny and we are floating in some dark place. I look at him and he simply says, “Remember. Jesus told you something last week and revealed your Jewish heritage to you. He is about to show you something else now. Just keep repeating His Name.” I keep repeating the Name of Jesus and I become aware of big snakes on the floor beneath this dark cave like place. I ask, “What are these?” I am told, “These are the worms of hell.” By this time I am very agitated and I shout out, “Worms? These thangs ain’t worms! These things are snakes! These are snakes of hell not worms of hell!” Lonny laughs and asks, “Would you like to get out of here?” I answer along the lines of an angry, “Well hell yeah, get me out of this place!’ Then I am made aware of how well I am hearing. I reach up to touch my ears and there are no hearing aids there. I say,”I can hear really well in this realm.” Then I am told,”Wake up in your bed now and when you wake up you will remember this place and then when you fall back asleep, you will find yourself right back here again.” Suddenly I am wide awake in bed and sigh, “Man! Am I glad to be out of THAT place!” I fall back to sleep immediately and find myself right back where I was moments before. Lonny then tells me, “Now you have seen you can go back if you want. Do you want to continue forward or go back now? You have free will.” I am too curious about all this by now so I tell him let’s keep going. We are suddenly projected forward faster and faster and I see a deep dark hole in front of me. I fearfully cry out, “I don’t think I am ready for this!” I am told to keep singing the Name of Jesus so I am repeating His Name with a vengeance when all of a sudden, “Whoosh!” I found myself falling through the deep dark hole and find myself in the lake of fire, known as hell. I am told to keep repeating the Name of Jesus and concentrate on the soul I see. By this time I am seeing lots of souls and am very agitated and angry and I say,”Which soul? This soul here or that one over there? There are lots of souls here, which one do I concentrate on?” Trust me, I am very terrified by now as well. I suddenly see a hand reaching out to me and a voice softly calls out to me and says, “Please sir, won’t you help me?”

    I see a man strapped in various places to the floor of hell. The flames are tormenting him and I am aware I am not being burned in the flames. I float over to him and I pick up his head to cradle it in my lap. I caress his face and forehead as he says,”I see you have deep faith in that Name of Jesus. Won’t you please help me?’ By now the tears are falling as I lovingly cradle his face. I have no need to know why he is in hell. I only see he is suffering and has been there quite a while. He then softly says to me, “Your tears and touch are so soothing in these flames.” I tearfully say, “But how can such small tears and touches help so much?” I then lay his head back down on hell’s floor and I hear my voice echoing down the corridors of hell as I cry out, “Father! Can’t you take the souls from this horrible place?!” I turn around and I look up. I see Jesus floating down in the flames of hell as He glides to the man I was crying for. I watch as Jesus unstraps the man from the many thongs that held him down. I then watch as Jesus tenderly lifts him up and takes him out of the fire that tormented him so. I gasp as I said, “Souls CAN be rescued from hell.” Then I am led to a door. I ask, “What is this room we are about to enter.” I am told, “This is the torture chamber of hell.” I said, “Oh great! After falling through the fire, I have to see this too!” I hear a chuckle and then I am awake in my bed again. My heart is pounding as I say, “Oh man! Am I glad to be out of that horrible, horrible place!” My mouth burns as if being lightly burned by the fire I was in. But the vision is not over yet. I lay back down and find myself standing with Jesus on the earth, somewhere between heaven and hell. I ask, “Jesus, why did you and others throw me in that fire without any warning or preparations?” Then Jesus answered, “You wanted to know what setting captivity free means. Now you know. Hell is not eternal for everyone. Setting captivity free simply means rescuing souls from hell. The church does not understand this.” Then He looks down at me and asks, “Will you go through hell’s door as often as I ask it of you to help me release these souls over time? Others have told me they will, and some have told me they will never go there again. And yes, child, I have thrown many others in there like I did you.” I look in amazement at Jesus and say, “I don’t really want to go down there again. But as long as You promise to go with me and not let the fire harm me, I will make as many trips into hell as You desire.” Jesus smiles and says, “Thank you, child. Now I have one more favor to ask of you.” He then shows me the future and I see the tribulation period going on the earth. He asks, “Will you be willing to work with Me on this earth during the tribulation period?” I look nervously at Jesus and I say, “I don’t really want to do that. But if it is what you want me to do Jesus, I will do it. But tell me, how will I not be afraid through all of this?’ Jesus replies, “What happened when you first found out you were in the lake of fire? You became terrified. But when you heard that one soul reaching out to you, and you chose to have compassion on him, you were no longer afraid. So will it be during the tribulation period. You will be afraid, but once you see the suffering of your fellowman, your compassion, My perfect Love in you, will cast out all fear as you reach out to a suffering world.” I said, “Okay, I can trust that. But I don’t want to be deaf during this time Jesus. Don’t ask me to do this while I am deaf!” Jesus laughs and says, “I was about to tell you I will open your ears soon. You will hear like everyone else. Your world will not be silent then.” Then for now the vision ends.

    Since that time, in 2001, at the age of 41, I have a cochlear implant in both ears. I have wires and computer chips in my head and inner ear to help me hear. I have been shown another vision three times. The rapture is slowed down and I am walking through the many souls that are suddenly going up into the air. I am not going up, but I am not afraid. I am laughing. I look back and see the hands of God holding the wires that were in my head. I no longer hear with cochlear implants. I have normal hearing and am hearing like everyone else. I enter a room where I find 7 more guys from the tribe of Levi. They seem afraid and I smile at them and tell them I am their fellow brother from the tribe of Levi and I have been miracously healed of deafness. They rejoice with me and we all embrace. Then we go to find the rest of the Levites who will be working with us, and then this vision ends. And then another day, I am working and suddenly, while awake, I hear a voice say, “Throw him into outer darkness!” I am thrown out of my body and repeating the Name of Jesus with a vengeance again. I hear the demons hissing as they say, “Don’t repeat that Name here!” I reply, “I don’t know why God threw me here but as long as I am here my lips will not cease to call upon that Name of Jesus” and the demons kept hissing. Suddenly I am back in my body and am shaking from head to toe, my heart pounding. I ask, “Okay, that was fearful, Lord. Why was this done.” Jesus immediately comforts me and softly says, “Always remember your fear when this happened. Many of my people will feel this fear when they are left behind during the rapture. Feel their fear. Comfort them with compassion. Let them know I have not rejected them. Let them know they were left behind not because of sin, but because they misinterpreted the scriptures. They have to be tested. Tell them, Child, I still love them and comfort them for Me.” I am moved deeply by the passion of Jesus and agree to this as well.

    In recent years, I have been pulled up and a seal has been placed on my forehead. Another seal was put over the crown of my head. I watched as an angel cried out, “Seal the righteous of God that were called before the creation of this world.” I see many men being sealed. We sing a song. It is a song no one else can learn or sing, except for those who have been sealed. Over the years, I have longed to learn of my Jewish heritage. I have been homesick for the land of Israel. I’ve gotten older. I am now 47 years old and was hospitalized recently. My get up and go is crippled. I jump out of bed and hours later my get up and go catches up to me shuffling on a walker. By the time it catches up, it is time to go to bed again. Even my reflection in the mirror did not cooperate with me when I had the cochlear implant surgery in 2001. Two days after the surgery I look in the mirror and see how swollen my face is. Suddenly I am aware my reflection is looking scared. As I stand there in front of the mirror, my reflections screams, goes back to bed and has a nightmare! I didn’t see my reflection for days!

    Also, over the years, instead of the name of Jesus, I sing his Hebrew Name of Yeshua. Just a few weeks ago, I was meditating on that name of Yeshua and I suddenly saw myself following Him up a long flight of stairs. Many others are following Him as well. I am motioned, along with eleven other men, to follow Yeshua to a high platform. Each of us stood for one of the tribes of Israel. Down below us were the remainder of the 144,000. One by one, Yeshua hollers to part of the crowd and says in a loud voice, “Men of the tribe of Benjamin. Do you accept so and so as your leader for the tribe of Benjamin.” Yeshua does this all twelve men. He stands beside me and yells, “Men of Levi! Do you accept this man as your leader for the tribe of Levi?” With one voice I see the tribe of Levi raise their arms as they say, “Yea Lord! We accept him as our leader.” I jump down, moved deeply by this show of affirmation and start shaking hands and hugging the men under me. I make the statement I was not sure I wanted to be the leader. I was told, “Tough deal then. You were drafted, you were chosen.”

    How many people can accept yet alone believe all I have shared in this email? I did not wish for these things, I was simply chosen for these things. I was chosen and I accepted, often reluctantly. I believe the time is arriving that more of us need to meet each other that have been called to be the 144,000. Heck, if it were left up to me, I would probably choose not to believe all this. But I was shown it all. It is real. It is frightening. Mostly frightening as I am aging older and the body is wearing out. Lonny is 60 and of the tribe of Judah. For the sake of His elect, Yeshua is shortening the time and getting ready to put us all to work. I reckon He will be doing quite a few miracles to everyone’s bodies that was chosen for this. Some of us need an overhaul from head to toe! Free of charge! Pretty soon!

    So, here it is guys. I sure hope I meet more of the 144,000 soon. May God bless you and your families richly.

    Your loving brother–Charles Oh let the Love and Light of Yeshua shine through me

  43. Dear God in Heaven, Heather…wow! I mean, aside from the unnerving text there, I am startled that your husband cannot (or will not) articulate his spiritual needs.

    To pick a certain church in a mainstream vein generally means that you chose it to meet certain spiritual needs.

    So, to turn to someone so outside the mainstream and so outside the Bible and claim to your spouse that you had no needs or voids to be met is either outright lying or deep denial.

    I’m not sure what you can ask that would get an answer for you if he is unwilling to examine himself or open himself up to you with such a basic and simple question. But, just for the hell of it, let me brainstorm a few and maybe there will be something useful:

    What did other churches/pastors/etc. fail to give you that Speedy does?

    What about him or his teachings makes you take his word over what is in God’s word as presented in the Bible (or Torah for that matter)?

    Why isn’t the existing word of God sufficient for you? Why do you feel there is a need or a place for the extra stuff that Speedy brings?

    What convinces you that Speedy is sincere and correct?

    Why will Jesus only speak to him and not to all of you?

  44. LOL @ deacon

    I am not sure your husbands are getting themselves into healthy forms of spirituality – seems like they prefer the edge of the faith (even it’s extremes in some senses).

  45. The impression I get from that wierd letter is insecurity. Charles feels an urge to belong to the right tribe even though the gospel is rather simple. His visions are not biblical but a mass of confusion. Deacon might have a point about aliens. I also thought maybe he drinks a lot or does drugs. Crying for this guy in Hell? Jesus then floats down and lets him go? Except he didn’t repent. Must be that mighty Name of Jesus, jus’ keep repeating it. Not saying Jesus’ name doesn’t have power to it, but the way this fellow uses it makes it sound like a magic trick as in “learn the magic word and you’re saved”.

    He then shows me the future and I see the tribulation period going on the earth.

    This segment was a red flag for me. You know these guys are going to pick a date and a time for Jesus’s return. Already they’re saying it’s drawing close. There is also a lot of conceit in this man’s mind. Sealed? Secret songs others are unable to sing? Sure. Insecurity. That’s my verdict.

    Satan: We’ll create religious obscurantism to confuse Jesus’ followers.
    Jesus: Keep it simple, stupid. My gospel is for all people to understand.

  46. Here’s some more stuff written back and forth from Trent to Charles and Jim. Can Trent actually believe that he can interpret Charles’ dreams? It’s rather disturbing to read.

    “You and Trent and your wives are in my prayers, my dear friend. Somehow, we all know each other, and that is the most amazing thing in a way.” (Charles)

    Charles,
    We can talk about it, but I took your vision of worms and torment to be contemplative of the soul on earth who is apart from God and in the torment of their own hard-hardheartedness … and that the distress of the soul in the tribulation will reach a point to where many will call out and be rescued who would otherwise never call out and never take interest in the things of God.

    Would you agree with my take?

    If so, than wouldn’t that realm in your vision that you called “hell” be an allegory of the current mess in which a rebellious soul finds itself in this world and more particularly in the world to come during the Day of the Lord?

    I’ve had many a fruitful meditation on outer darkness, and have come to understand what and where it is (to some extent.) Nevertheless, even that part of what you were telling us seemed to be an allegory of a soul that has chosen rebellion in this life … choosing by their own unwillingness to repent to remain apart from true Life found only through YahShua.

    To let you know where we are coming from … we understand John 3:16 in a literal sense … specifically that the alternative to taking and eating of the Lord by faith is to perish – or be utterly destroyed. Very few church-goers, though they can quote John 3:16, believe what it says. Rather they tend toward the harlot’s teaching of a soul in eternal torment … never perishing. But such a teaching is older than the harlot, for even the serpent has said to woman: “You shall surely not die.” … and the lie of the snake is proliferated in church doctrines that teach unending conscious torment.

    You may already agree with all of this, so I’ll spare you the 300 or so verses that support “perishing” rather than “unending conscious torment” … however, I don’t want to assume. So let me ask: Do you follow what I am telling you so far?

    Thanks,
    Trent

    latest … from Trent: to Jim about Charles…….
    Trent says “I calmed him down over the phone about his embarrassment saying that we are a little hyper-sensitive about a certain doctrine (eternal torment) and we could have said a bunch of things we agreed about but human nature is to be critical first and not affirm . But that the Lord has spoken to each of us individually and will continue to do so …. no worries … (Charles is WAY sensitive) see below”

    These two letters was sent to Trent @ gracehead.com, from a guy named Ron from NZ & someone else named Ray. However, both of these guys agree with Trent & Jim, concerning Speedothy and their doctrines. Unbelievable!!

    From Ron:

    To whom it may concern.

    Over the past years, God has been getting my attention like he has never done before, and doing a work in me that is totally alien to what I have been taught in the religious system.

    It all began with what Paul was saying in Philippians 3:10-11:- “That I may know him (Jesus) and the power of his resurrection, through participation in his sufferings, being conformed to his death, so that I may experience his resurrection out of death.”

    What was being taught was that because Jesus went through it, we do not have to, we just trust in what he accomplished.

    Then God made it plain to me that if I was to be where he is, I had to go through what he went through, so I began to pray that whatever it took, I would accept, so that I may be one with him, so God took me at my word, and began to put me through some death dealing treatment so that I could undergo the necessary changes.

    Remember that Jesus said to his Disciples that they could not go where he was going, John 13:33 yet in his prayer in John 17:24 he prayed that we may be with him where he is, so that became my desire.

    I began to experience things that the Christian church attributes to Satan, but I knew that God was putting me through a test of faith that would enable me to go through what Jesus went through, to be where he is.

    To the unenlightened, I was sick, but in faith I was proving God, for in believing that God was Sovereign, I could accept that what I was going through was his plan, and would not destroy me.

    I was taken to Hospital with the symptoms of Prostate Cancer, and while in Hospital I was taken to the Garden of Gethsemane and saw first hand the struggle of faith that Jesus underwent, and the lack of faith of his Disciples.Needless to say, I am now clear of all symptoms of cancer.

    A few months later I was taken to Hospital with the symptoms of a stroke, and while in Hospital I experienced what God said was a preview of the Kingdom of Heaven, as all my physical senses were de-activated, and all I could sense was peace and love.

    I now know that faith is something other than what we learn in church, for it is trusting God in all things, even the process of dying, while expecting for him to produce life through the experience.

    I now know without doubt that what Jesus said in John 11:25-26 is a foundational truth, and that I am not going to see the grave.

    Whoever has ears to hear, let him hear the truth that will set him free.

    From Ray:

    How goes it my brother, I pray that this mail finds you and yours safe, blessed, and well. First off I truly apologize for not responding to your call you probably think me very strange, and eccentric but our FATHER tell’s me it is not yet the time for us to speak with each other, We should only correspond with each other via e-mail. I received last summer a letter from Federal-Mogul showing my earnings for my pension plan which I had completely forgotten about, because while working there, THiCol(part of NASA) had bought the company(HUCK)which I worked for 13 yrs. Anyhow I get a letter telling me I have $3700 dollars vested. So anyhow after much prayer GOD reveals to me he wants me to use this money as a start for myself to walk, hike across this country and spread the true gospel of JESUS and also discover myself and HIM in me. I believe this journey to be part of the Revelation that will finally end with HIS coming and Gathering of his chosen. I am beginning to chart my path and prepare for this journey, I would like for you to give me any in-put and advice that you feel would help, I be leave we could use this as an opportunity to raise money for the needy , you have the knowledge and no-how to go about this. HE reveals to me that I will gather many on this journey. I look at what I have written and I would think this person crazy, but I assure you I’m not. Anyhow Much Agape LOVE, Your bro in CHRIST JESUS

    BTW: their end of the world date is the end of 2011.
    It just gets weirder and weirder.

    “What did other churches/pastors/etc. fail to give you that Speedy does?
    They are so against churches that gives money to pastors. I went to a ladies conference last weekend @ a lovely church and Trent disapproved b/c I paid a $30 fee.

    What about him or his teachings makes you take his word over what is in God’s word as presented in the Bible (or Torah for that matter)? Trent has said that he doesn’t do this @ all. God uses the “letters” to speak to Trent like God uses the Bible to speak to Trent

    Why isn’t the existing word of God sufficient for you? Why do you feel there is a need or a place for the extra stuff that Speedy brings? Trent does not feel that he’s adding to scripture @ all! In fact, he puts Speedothy right there next to Paul the apostle. He doesn’t believe that Speedothy is adding.

    What convinces you that Speedy is sincere and correct?B/c only God would know what God was teaching Trent as a younger man and it’s all in the “letters”. That’s what drew Trent in to believe this stuff.

    Why will Jesus only speak to him and not to all of you?”(Deacon Blue)

    They have an answer for everything. It’s quite amazing. Today is there Sabbath so he’s not working & they’re going to the Jewish synagogue to celebrate another feast. Trent wants me to go but I have a woman’s Bible study every Wednesday that I love. Plus I’m not interested in the feast @ all!!!!! Am I being a bad wife?

    Thanks for all of your suggestions, advice, prayers & support. Maybe it’s best, to separate, from Trent, until he can clean up his act. He & Jim are definitely addicted to this stuff but it’s unlike any other addiction b/c it “looks” good; it’s all for God/Yeshua. You know? It’s crazy stuff!

    HMF

  47. This sort of behavior is indicative of people who have decided that their own understanding of God is greater than the bible – and thus God Himself. Instead of using the bible as their spiritual foundation, they ‘use’ it to support their wild fantasies. It seems interesting to me that all of those different people who have come to these amazing revelations have done so by themselves – all alone. This is one major reason why we are encouraged to have healthy fellowship, to keep the crazy in check. So that we avoid people allowing their imaginations to run wild in their hermetic stage (that doesn’t automatically mean that fellowship/church is a place where free thinking is discouraged – though it often and sadly is – , it just means that there might be more spiritually/scriptually grounded people around to keep one tethered in reality).

    These are clearly extreme religious zealots, not unlike the type of devotion we see from those sprouting from the Muslim faith. The fact that they are now gathering and reinforcing each others crazy only makes the situation more volitile.

    From my perspective I can only encourage you guys to practice self preservance. Love them, pray for them, do whatever you can, but above all: protect yourselves. Jonestown was not full of devout followers. There was a core of fanatics and they were surrounded by others who were to weak/unable to stay clear or their loved ones. I’m not implying that you guys are weak, but your husbands and their fantasy religion buddies will relentlessly wear you down. Make clear discisions now while you can still see the light.

    I would say, based on everything we’ve read here, that your husbands are beyond the reasoning stage. Please correct me if someone sees this otherwise. The last thing I would want to do is promote the end of a marriage, but it seems to me as though this avalanche wont be stopped by words.

  48. “They have an answer for everything. It’s quite amazing. Today is there Sabbath so he’s not working & they’re going to the Jewish synagogue to celebrate another feast. Trent wants me to go but I have a woman’s Bible study every Wednesday that I love. Plus I’m not interested in the feast @ all!!!!! Am I being a bad wife?” (heather)

    Parts of what Trent and other do actually do not bother me – like attending synagogue and participating in the feasts (that’s not actually a bad thing). In fact, this may very well end up being you answer. Maybe Trent and others meet some very well meaning Jewish people and get straight on some of their beliefs? Most Jewish congregations do not believe in prophets anymore – so eventually if they start talking to these dudes they will hear things they never knew concerning how Jewish interpretation actually reads. This might actually be a good thing.

    Heather I don’t think you are a bad wife for not wanting to leave a bible study you get a lot out of to do what Trent desires you to do…that’s down-right normal.

    I have very little problems with them doing the Jewish thing – I think it can be very helpful for them (heck I even consider doing that for a better view of the scriptures and to learn about the Jewish faith – and I likely will one of these days). I would that all Christians would take some time to learn about the Jewish faith and festivals – and gain an appreciation for what it is the Torah actually teaches.

    What bothers me is the craziness of his friends and this obsessions with Revelations the people around him have (including Speedy). That letter is being used by people that know nothing about the background or literary style being used there – and it’s not one we actually use in this country (nor ever have). Thus we see some crazy stuff by these people being said – who I am guessing all go by their feelings to guide their faith also – and we see some very strange ideas.

    Trent is adding to the word of God – he is putting Speedy’s stuff right beside the teachings of Paul and words of Jesus – this is just a mistake. Ask Trent one simple question:

    Is there anything Speedy can write or say that will further add to what Jesus already accomplished at the cross?

    If the answer is ‘no’ – then I am not sure why Speedy’s works get the same authority as the teachings of Jesus (gospels) or on Jesus (via the letters). Speedy is really only offering them something optional – everything they really need to study and know is already before them.

    If the answer is ‘yes’ – then he is no longer what we I would call a Christian – since Jesus’ work needs more added to it – and for some odd reason he thinks he and his cronies can add to it…they are playing messiah.

  49. Let me add my agreement that you aren’t a “bad wife.” We cannot support our spouses on everything and we don’t always share the same desires or interests. I don’t know how many you still share with your husband, religiously and non-religiously, but that will probably be the best gauge of whether you still have a viable marriage.

    On the one hand, I cannot fault Trent for having answers to everything. I have been known to dip into theory and speculation to support some of the things in the Bible or to fill in the blanks on areas that are unclear. To some degree, we all have excused to back up our beliefs. It’s just that I tend to lean to the side of logic whenever possible.

    For example, I don’t see many logical reasons for 11 guys to preach Jesus risen and put themselves through all the hell they did if Jesus didn’t actually rise. Would seem to me that many (and likely most) would have renounced Jesus as a fraud rather than risk death. Unless they were all nutters, and that doesn’t seem to be the case based on their writings.

    I just don’t see any logical basis for Trent’s support of Speedy. It’s an addiction and he’s justifying his need for his fix.

    Again, I know this obviously weighs heavy on you. Again, whether it means you need to separate physically or call it quits largely depends on how much this impacts your daily life, your well-being, your quality of life, your ability to function…and how much the two of you still share.

  50. Steve,
    Thanks. Glad to see someone got my point!

    Heather,
    I find it highly unlikely your husband is hanging out at a synagogue. We don’t call Sukkot a ‘feast’, only messianic Jews for Jesus types say such things. These groups also are quite enamored with the ‘secrets’ of Revelations considering themselves the only true believers in the world as compared to all of us lost Jews and all of you lost Christians.

    If you would, please post the name of the place where they are going. If it is a legitimate synagogue steps can be taken to make sure they are no longer given free access. The type of people you are describing here are not welcome in our shuls. We had some come to ours once but when I informed Rabbi who they were, he tossed them out and got the word out so that no one else allowed them to hang out either. If you don’t feel comfortable posting it in public, please email me at jael1822@yahoo.com If these guys want to start some loony tunes group they can do so on their own turf, not on ours. I’ll leave the praying for others. Action is more my style.

    Interesting you say you have no desire to go to this ‘feast’, which is actually the festival of Sukkot, the one festival Zechariah speaks of all the nations one day coming to celebrate.

    Zechariah 14:16-19

    It shall be that all who are left over from all the nations who had invaded Jerusalem will come up every year to worship the King Adonai, Master of Legions, and to celebrate the festival of Sukkot. And it shall be that whichever of the families of the land does not go up to Jerusalem to bow down before the King, Adonai, Master of Legions, there will be no rain upon them. But if it is the family of Egypt that does not go up and does not come, there will be no water for them; the same plague will come to pass with which Adonai will strike the nations that do not go up to celebrate the festival of Succot. This will be the punishment of the Egyptians and the punishment of all the nations that will not go up to celebrate the festival of Sukkot.

    Sukkot also is quite the Bible study Deuteronomy 31:10-13

    Moses commanded them saying, “At the end of seven years, at the time of the Sabbatical year, during the Sukkot festival, when all Israel comes to appear before Adonai, your God, in the place that God will choose, you shall read this Torah before all Israel, in their ears, Gather together the people – the men, the women, and the small children, and your stranger who is in your cities – so that they will hear and so that they will learn, and they shall fear Adonai, your God, and be careful to perform all the words of this Torah. And their children who do not know – they shall hear and they shall learn to fear Adonai, your God, all the days that you live on the land to which you are crossing the Jordan, to possess it.

  51. Thank you for everyone’s input and I’m especailly excited to see what Yealbatsarah wrote being a Jew in all.

    I want everyone to understand that I have NO problem with going back to one’s roots. My grandfather is a real Jew so it is legitimate for me to do that. But right now I don’t have a desire to study the feasts or anything Jewish. There I said it I have Jewish blood in me. 🙂

    However, Trent & their group is “quite enamored with the ’secrets’ of Revelations considering themselves the only true believers in the world” (Yaelbatsaraj)which I have no desire to be a part of Jew or Gentile.

    Trent has gone off the deep end into an extreme weird search for something more than the Lord Jesus. It may seem that I have something against “the feasts” and I have NO problem “dipping into theory and speculation to support some of the things in the Bible or to fill in the blanks on areas that are unclear.”(Steve) Trent has gone to a place that is weird, extreme, and very dangerous. I don’t want to be dragged down with him but as his wife, best friend, and sister in the Lord, I want to do what it takes to do what is best.

    But my husband has separated himself from me and has an alliance, with his secret super power friend, Speedothy. I want my husband back and if there’s no chance for that then what. I’m not looking for anyone to tell me what’s best here but that is my truth. Trent & I used to be very tight and told each other lots and have shared many things together, especially our worshiip TOGETHER, in the Lord. Now he has an alliance, to this group, and God is first and then me.

    You guys are great and I can’t tell you enough how thankful I am to have this kind of fellowship, with other folks, who know Trent, and know who crazy Speedothy is.

    Peace out for now! HMF

    Yael,

    I’m going to email you with that info ASAP so stay tuned!

  52. Hi Heather,
    I didn’t get an email from you yet in case you already tried to send one. Just to be sure you have it correctly I’ll post my email again all in caps. My Hebrew name is Yael, but in my email I use the English spelling of Jael. JAEL1822@yahoo.com I guess I just like to make it all confusing.

    Heather, I don’t take insult that you have no interest in Jewish festivals. You’re a Christian, you have your own holidays and traditions. I just thought it might be interesting to point out that Sukkot is actually one that non-Jews will one day celebrate. If you were into all the messianic Jewish stuff where they try to put Jesus into all of our traditions, thus doing things like eating treif in a sukkah, then I WOULD be offended. Boundaries are great things to have in place; trepassing is no way to live. I’m glad you’re content with your own boundaries as I am with mine. It makes it much easier to work together on this problem.

    I look forward to your email.

  53. Yael,

    You made a great point when you said “you’re a Christian, you have your own holidays and traditions”.

    To me that is why it’s weird that Trent & Jim are abandoning our Christian ways, & adopting Jewish ways. Yael I like how you put that we have boundaries and that Trent, Jim, and the others are crossing those boundaries. If anyone has a reason to cross, into the Jewish boundaries, then it’s me, with my grandfather, being 100% Jewish.

    Trent, Jim, and the others have no idea what they are really doing. In fact, when I asked Trent, what the feasts really mean, he really didn’t know but said something like I want to see Jesus in all of this, and this is what we’ll be doing in the Millennium.

    Trent & Jim believe that they are grafted into Jesus so it’s their calling to discover their Hebrew roots.

    Trent doesn’t celebrate Christmas, birthdays, Easter, our anniversary, or any “Christian” holidays. He only celebrates the Holy Days. I think that he may be confused with who he is.

    This is a message that Trent received from a guy in NZ who believes like they do about prophecy in all.

    What do you all think about this?

    A Word through Ron …

    From: Ron Greenfield
    Date: Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 4:57 PM
    To: “trent@gracehead.com”

    Thus saith the Lord.

    Hear me my people, for your time is running short, as my plans are coming to fruition.

    You are about to experience some events that to some will seem catastrophic, but to my chosen ones, these events will be signposts, introducing them into my Kingdom.

    To the world I say, prepare yourselves for chaos, as the schemes of Men crumble into the dust, and everything you have trusted in comes to nothing.

    To my chosen ones I say, stand firm in the faith I have established in you, and fear nothing that you see, for I will protect you as I have promised.

    You are about to see and experience things that have not been seen or experienced before, for you are about to enter the reality of my Kingdom.

    What you now see in the mirror will no longer be seen, for you are about to change, as you take upon yourselves my image and likeness, and the world will respond in anger, as they realise they have missed the mark.

    Know this, that even as they could not touch my Son, Jesus, had he not allowed them, so they will not be able to harm you in their anger.

    Listen carefully to me, my children, it is time to come out of your illusions into my Kingdom.

    I created everything that exists, and I sustain everything that I created, and I work all things together for the benefit of my purposes. Do you think I need you to help me, or to do things for me, as if I was helpless ?

    If you think this, you do not know me at all, and are in an illusion of your own mind.

    I have been in control since the beginning, I am now in control, and I always will be in control, and anything else is an illusion.

    I am allowing you to set up your own plans and purposes, for it occupies you until you realize that it is all fruitless, and you need to fit into my plans, not expecting me to fit into your plans.

    Some of you are already seeing the fruitlessness of doing things your way, and are reaching out to know me more intimately, but others are too deeply embedded in their own religious illusions to see the truth yet. You were created for one purpose, and only one purpose, and that is to become my habitation, and only in this will you ever see perfect success, for then you will be changed into my image, as a true Son, as the Christ, individually and corporately.

    It is only in the illusion of your flesh oriented mind that you see chaos in the world, and feel the need to change it, but I want you to know that everything is as it needs to be to fulfill my purposes, and does not require your intervention.

    In your flesh oriented mind, you see Satan as having a more powerful influence in the world than I do, but know this, that the devil in your mind is also an illusion from your own thinking, and is incapable of thwarting my purposes.

    When you are willing to let me change your thinking, you will lose your awareness of his workings, and then you will find peace, and safety, and your time will not be wasted in futile efforts, and I will then fit you into my perfect will.

    The lack you see in your provision comes from your own wrong thinking, for did I not promise to provide all your needs out of my resources in Christ ? The very need you see to work, to earn the money to provide for your family, comes out of thinking that I cannot provide for you, and that is the illusion under which the world functions.

    However, until your faith is firmly established in me, you will remain in the illusion that you have to provide for yourself, so do not act hastily without adequate faith, which I will set in motion when the time is right.

    Finally, all your sicknesses and dis-eases, come from the same source, from your wrong thinking, and will also dis-appear when you find your life in me, and my life in you.

  54. (a) I think knowing Jewish festivals and feasts is grand – it promotes inter-faith dialogue. However, trent and then think they have Hebrew roots – that’s bonkers (namely if they don’t).

    (b) Ron is quite the vague prophet ain’t he? I see a lot of stuff in there about changing one’s ways but nothing about anything in specific – God forbid he actually make a specific claim and be found for what he is – another person with romantic illusions concerning his own place in Christianity. I read that whole letter – nothing stood out – except the ‘end is near and repent’…I don’t need Ron for that message I can tell ya that.

    (c) The more I hear about Trent – he actually seems like someone that is into the messianic Christianity movement – wanting to prepare somehow for the ‘end’. Problem is – preperation is not about doing those feasts and festivals – but about the actions we take towards other human beings (our treatment of this world). If he truly wants to prepare himself from God – then he only needs to start ‘loving his neigbor as himself’. I think he wants something more tangible as ‘proof’ of some sort…and he is giving Speedy a whirl – the feasts – etc.

    (d) Trent’s own faith desires are becoming more and more the problem. I think he is moving from hearer to participant – and trying to sculpt out a name in the faith (maybe he feels meaningless in the faith prior) with some other people like Speedy and Ron (somehow this gives him some ‘ego boost’). Personally I write a blog for that – in which people can feel free to disagree with me – so my ego stays in serious check. I don’t need much more to be honest – the blog is fun enough. Trent is searching for more meaning in his faith – I think he wants to be someone…and that’s really tragic – he is someone already.

  55. Heather,
    Some surprise. That ‘synagogue’ is no synagogue. Just as I thought. It’s a messianic ‘Jewish’ ‘church’. Now perhaps you understand some of the ‘ugly’ conversation I had with Jim. He’s always promoting this kind of crap as being ‘real’ Judaism. Unfortunately the story of your husband is only too common with these people. They certainly do a fine job tearing about both Jewish and Christian families. You have my deepest sympathy, but….all is not lost. For many people this is a passing phase. I’ll be emailing you.

  56. Societyvs,
    Whatever it takes, whatever it takes.

    “If I am not for myself, who will be for me? But if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?” (Pirke Avot 1:14)

  57. What is the difference between Messianic Jews, Jews, and Christian Jews or is there one? I think what Trent and the others are into is Messianic Judaism. Are all Messianic Jews into the prophetic like Trent? How do we get him away from Speedothy?

    Our counselor suggested a few things to try and get Trent away from Speedothy, for example, to text or write Trent & say try my kind of a marriage and ask him to give up being married to Speedothy and be married to me. What do y’all think?

    HMF

  58. “to text or write Trent & say try my kind of a marriage and ask him to give up being married to Speedothy and be married to me. What do y’all think?” (Heather)

    Thing is – I am not sure Trent see’s himself as married to Speedy – he see’s in some religious enlightenment sense (ie: a prophet who can lead him to new truths).

    Fact is, Trent needs to learn to value his marriage again. Now how that starts and happens I am not sure – but it seems to me he is taking it for granted.

  59. Once again, I want to say Thank you so much for all of your support and honesty. Sometimes it is much easier to talk and receive objective feedback from people who are not emotionally involved in my life.
    My husband, Jim, told our four- year old son that he could not go trick or treating and that only pagans celebrate Halloween. I found this out yesterday when my son told his 9 year old cousin that he could not go trick or treating because only “pigisms” do that!
    I talked to Jim about all of this last night. I am so concerned about how our different perspectives/beliefs will affect our two boys. They are ages 2 and 4 and very impressionable right now.
    Jim read to me the origination of Halloween and then could not believe that I would still dress our boys in costumes and trick or treat. We are not celebrating the “day of the dead” or any evil spirits. We are spending time with family and friends and enjoying a fun evening.
    It looks like every Holiday is going to be a struggle because Jim has read Timothy’s book Holidays -vrs- Holy days. I can listen to Jim and understand his perspective, especially with Halloween. Jim indicated that he is the leader of the family and that we should not go out on Halloween. I am not judging him if he does not want to participate then I will understand. However, I want to celebrate Holidays with my boys as we have always done this in the past. These are special days with family and friends. All of this stuff wears me out and I am so tired of the division that is in the family.
    Please continue in prayer,
    Buffy

  60. “It looks like every Holiday is going to be a struggle because Jim has read Timothy’s book Holidays -vrs- Holy days. I can listen to Jim and understand his perspective, especially with Halloween” (Buffy)

    Every Halloween I have problems with Timothy – the reason i was booted from Gracehead is because I celebrate Halloween – I am not sure this is an argument you are going to win unfortunately.

    However, here is my take on this Holidays vs. Holy Days thing:

    (a) None of the holidays we partake in are actually ‘evil’ in nature – including Easter, Halloween, Thanksgiving, and Christmas. In each of them is actually time to spend with family and to meet new people (usually in a spirit of giving and hospitality).

    (b) The Holy Days (feasts and festivals) of the Torah do not cancel out holidays recognized by the American and Canadian calendar – and these Holy Days make no mention of cancelling out other culture’s holidays whatsoever (I see none of that in the Torah).

    (c) The holidays may originate from some questionable circumstances – as they claim – pagan rituals and what have you – but nothing in those holidays is actually anti-God or anti-human. The originations (if even true) of these events is not what we celebrate on those holidays (undeniable fact) – if anything these holidays have been ‘Christianized’…or made more pleasant with some of the ideas introduced (like Christmas).

    (d) How is Halloween really that bad? Kids get dressed up (fun) and hang out with friends (fun) and go door to door (visiting neighbors) and are given candy for free (a huge treat – and very hospitable of you ask me). That version of Halloween really has nothing that is specifically all that bad – at least this was the version of Halloween I remember as a kid. There was no casting of spells and sacrifces to some strange gods – nothing like that was included in my version of halloween.

    (e) Jim may have a perspective concerning halloween – but I have heard this ‘crap’ from churches I attended also – concerning holidays and banning them. They tell you 1/2 truths and ‘fear mongering’ to get you persuaded to their side – like ‘God is not happy with you if you celebrate this’. They try to use their faith in a way that promotes fear – when ‘perfect love casts out all fear’. I do not think our faith should revolve around fear – and when it does – I am not sure that is God authoring that intent.

    In the end, the people following Speedy are basically trying to be ‘more holy’ than everyone else – namely because they think they ‘know more about truth and God than the rest of us’. It’s basic nonsense. Not saying they may not know more about some of these Holy Days – but they are misguided in their use of them – they use them as standards of judgement against their own families! I don’t like it personally.

  61. Buffy

    You should pick up a book called “Pagan Christianity”(written by Christians), you would be surprised to find that many so called Christian traditions have their root in Paganism. Very interesting read. As far as Halloween goes, its kind of ironic that many Christians believe it is based on Evil. One of the reasons scary masks are worn is to actually ward off “Evil spirits”.

    Good luck………..sounds like these guys are in deep.

  62. I am not opposed, with Trent or anyone, becoming familiar with Holy Days in all. In fact, I am Jewish ( a 100% Jewish grandfather) so maybe someday I’ll explore my Jewish roots but for now I have to stay focused on what i know to be true. We do so many pagan things so who cares? I believe it’s a heart issue anyway.

    However, this is the kind of stuff we can get sucked into easily if they continue to wear us down like I think they are. Please continue your prayers for Buffy & myself. You know what’s sad is that I don’t know how much to trust Trent and I’m becoming paranoid so to speak that when he does something nice for me I think that he has a motivation connected to Speedothy. It’s creepy for us right now. I don’t want to live this way with my husband. I’m also beginning to think that I’m totally, on my own, meaning that Trent is so tied into this group that his alliance is with them and not me. That’s scary.

    What really bothers me is that they are listening to & following a so called prophet man & equating letters & Speedothy to scripture & to the apostles. I know that there are those of you out there that don’t view scripture like I do that’s fine. But when I met Trent and up until a few years ago, Trent believed mostly like I do & now Trent, Jim, and the rest are brainwashed and they are so listening to Speedothy that they can’t hear God & see the absurdity in it all.

    How can we help them hear God again? Speedothy has got to mess up sooner or later don’t you think? Something’s got to give. What is it going to take to blow the lid off this group? Maybe I need to start posting and start blogs all over the place exposing this fraud. What do you think?

    Buffy and I are in decision mode do we stay with our husbands and ride it out or do we cut our losses and say bye? It’s not something anyone can tell us what to do but we’re hating being in this position. Thank you all for listening and for your prayers and support!!!!

    HMF

  63. This is Speedothy’s response to those letters that Ron & that Ray wrote:

    Speedothy says: “The Lord said this is not His spoken word, nor did they hear His voice, but rather brought forth this word from their own heart, according to their learning and according to their own understanding of the Scriptures of Truth. And though much of it is in agreement, it did not come from the mouth of the Lord, but from the minds of men…even in their own words did they write it. Neither did it carry any impact or feeling… as Jeanette’s letters were, so are these.

    Sorry, bros.” Speedothy

    Ron …

    From: Ron Greenfield
    Date: Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 4:57 PM
    To: “trent@gracehead.com”

    Thus saith the Lord.

    Hear me my people, for your time is running short, as my plans are coming to fruition.

    You are about to experience some events that to some will seem catastrophic, but to my chosen ones, these events will be signposts, introducing them into my Kingdom.

    To the world I say, prepare yourselves for chaos, as the schemes of Men crumble into the dust, and everything you have trusted in comes to nothing.

    To my chosen ones I say, stand firm in the faith I have established in you, and fear nothing that you see, for I will protect you as I have promised.

    You are about to see and experience things that have not been seen or experienced before, for you are about to enter the reality of my Kingdom.

    What you now see in the mirror will no longer be seen, for you are about to change, as you take upon yourselves my image and likeness, and the world will respond in anger, as they realise they have missed the mark.

    Know this, that even as they could not touch my Son, Jesus, had he not allowed them, so they will not be able to harm you in their anger.

    Listen carefully to me, my children, it is time to come out of your illusions into my Kingdom.

    I created everything that exists, and I sustain everything that I created, and I work all things together for the benefit of my purposes. Do you think I need you to help me, or to do things for me, as if I was helpless ?

    If you think this, you do not know me at all, and are in an illusion of your own mind.

    I have been in control since the beginning, I am now in control, and I always will be in control, and anything else is an illusion.

    I am allowing you to set up your own plans and purposes, for it occupies you until you realize that it is all fruitless, and you need to fit into my plans, not expecting me to fit into your plans.

    Some of you are already seeing the fruitlessness of doing things your way, and are reaching out to know me more intimately, but others are too deeply embedded in their own religious illusions to see the truth yet. You were created for one purpose, and only one purpose, and that is to become my habitation, and only in this will you ever see perfect success, for then you will be changed into my image, as a true Son, as the Christ, individually and corporately.

    It is only in the illusion of your flesh oriented mind that you see chaos in the world, and feel the need to change it, but I want you to know that everything is as it needs to be to fulfill my purposes, and does not require your intervention.

    In your flesh oriented mind, you see Satan as having a more powerful influence in the world than I do, but know this, that the devil in your mind is also an illusion from your own thinking, and is incapable of thwarting my purposes.

    When you are willing to let me change your thinking, you will lose your awareness of his workings, and then you will find peace, and safety, and your time will not be wasted in futile efforts, and I will then fit you into my perfect will.

    The lack you see in your provision comes from your own wrong thinking, for did I not promise to provide all your needs out of my resources in Christ ? The very need you see to work, to earn the money to provide for your family, comes out of thinking that I cannot provide for you, and that is the illusion under which the world functions.

    However, until your faith is firmly established in me, you will remain in the illusion that you have to provide for yourself, so do not act hastily without adequate faith, which I will set in motion when the time is right.

    Finally, all your sicknesses and dis-eases, come from the same source, from your wrong thinking, and will also dis-appear when you find your life in me, and my life in you.

    A note from Ray to Trent…..
    From Ray:

    How goes it my brother, I pray that this mail finds you and yours safe, blessed, and well. First off I truly apologize for not responding to your call you probably think me very strange, and eccentric but our FATHER tell’s me it is not yet the time for us to speak with each other, We should only correspond with each other via e-mail. I received last summer a letter from Federal-Mogul showing my earnings for my pension plan which I had completely forgotten about, because while working there, THiCol(part of NASA) had bought the company(HUCK)which I worked for 13 yrs. Anyhow I get a letter telling me I have $3700 dollars vested. So anyhow after much prayer GOD reveals to me he wants me to use this money as a start for myself to walk, hike across this country and spread the true gospel of JESUS and also discover myself and HIM in me. I believe this journey to be part of the Revelation that will finally end with HIS coming and Gathering of his chosen. I am beginning to chart my path and prepare for this journey, I would like for you to give me any in-put and advice that you feel would help, I be leave we could use this as an opportunity to raise money for the needy , you have the knowledge and no-how to go about this. HE reveals to me that I will gather many on this journey. I look at what I have written and I would think this person crazy, but I assure you I’m not. Anyhow Much Agape LOVE, Your bro in CHRIST JESUS

  64. Heather, they’re both kind of a bit strange – Speedy, Ray, and Ron. I guess this is the door our faith can leave when we rely too much on our feelings – which is what seems is happening with all these people. They ‘feel’ like they are hearing from God and getting some direct signal – when I am not sure they are – they couild be just hearing their own thoughts (my personal opinion).

  65. Heather,
    No, you’re not Jewish because your grandfather was Jewish. It doesn’t work that way.

    A person is Jewish if their MOTHER was Jewish or IF they convert according to Jewish law. Conversion consists of studying with a rabbi for 1-2 years, sometimes longer depending on the person, appearing before a Jewish court and being questioned about your understanding of Judaism and how well you have become a part of the community, and then immersing in a ritual bath called the mikvah while renouncing all previously held beliefs. Reform Judaism also considers a person to be Jewish if their father was Jewish and this person was raised Jewish, but the other Jewish movements do not accept this definition.

    A Jewish Christian is a born Jew who converts to Christianity and lives his life as a part of Christianity. I think it’s kind of sad when a Jew chooses this route, but at least they are honest about who they are.

    A ‘Messianic Jew’ is theoretically a born Jew who converts to Christianity but then insists on still living a pseudo-Jewish life with Jesus inserted into Jewish traditions. I say ‘theoretically’ because most of these people are not Jewish at all. Some have Jewish ancestry somewhere, but most do not. Yet, many call themselves Jews because they want to be Jewish and because Jews are given an elevated status.

    I think the messianics tend to be drawn to prophecy more than the average Christian because they see themselves as the fulfillment of prophecy, the possessors of that secret understanding. Likely the degree of nuttiness depends on the group and its leaders.

  66. Thanks for the explanation Yeal! I am seeing more and more just how deep Trent is into this stuff especially @ our counseling meetings. It’s a mess.

  67. This is stuff that Trent gets from another so called Thus says the Lord prophet person. Speedothy says that this guy Ron, who wrote this crap, is not speaking direct dictation from the Lord. Doug said that’s because only Speedothy wants to be the one who does this.

    Pilgrimage.

    As I was meditating this morning, my spirit was dwelling on the message below.

    Every child that hears my voice, and accepts my challenge, will begin a pilgrimage that will change their life, and they will become my true Sons.

    Each of these Pilgrims will learn to recognize others on the same pilgrimage, and will often join with others, making the journey easier for them.

    These Pilgrims will also learn to discern others who are not on the same journey, and will not associate with them because they are self-serving.

    It is necessary for each of my chosen ones to begin a pilgrimage, a journey into the unknown, for nothing less than full commitment will find me, and many who profess to be my Sons are in fact deceived into thinking they can serve me part-time, while enjoying the pleasures of the world.

    As I have said, you will find me only when you search for me with all your heart, and that does not leave room for the pleasures of the world.

    This pilgrimage involves a single-mindedness that excludes everything else but finding me, and experiencing my life within.

  68. I think Ron is a little off his rocker – this is my personal opinion of the guy – he makes what he is doing seem like the most spiritual thing one can do – which gives him some made up level of authority. If I knew this man I would challenge his theology out right – it seems skewed.

  69. Do you think that Buffy & I are to be on our toes about this “Pilgrimage” concerning our husbands? Deep down we feel that this is what is to come of these men. What do you think?

    Also, I’ve asked Trent if he cares who his sources are and he says that he doesn’t so he’s not going to question this guys theology. However if I bring up this to Trent he will jump all over me and question me so on and so forth what is that?

  70. “Do you think that Buffy & I are to be on our toes about this “Pilgrimage” concerning our husbands? Deep down we feel that this is what is to come of these men. What do you think?” (Heather)

    If what they are doing is causing them committ actual acts of immorality – then I think there is need to be worried and to challenge their beliefs. I sense they are not behaving immorally – just hold ideas that are very questionable and go by their feelings a little too much.

    “Also, I’ve asked Trent if he cares who his sources are and he says that he doesn’t so he’s not going to question this guys theology. However if I bring up this to Trent he will jump all over me and question me so on and so forth what is that?” (Trent)

    Well he should – if he cannot back up his principles and beliefs with his foundational texts (ie: the NT) then how is his position concerning what he believes supposed to be verified as ‘true’? By gut feelings? I am sorry – but that’s not how this faith works and it is not how I think God laid this out for us. I mean, what if he was in error – how would anyone be able to verify that? On the flip side – if he is following the truth – how can that be verified? He does not care about his sources – then he has some serious problems.

  71. Do ya’ll think that Buffy & I need to go meet this Charles & Lonny? What do you think about what this guys is saying? Weird?

    HMF

    trent@prospectionsinc.com
    to me

    show details 2:05 AM (8 hours ago)

    Reply

    When can we get a chance for Charles and Lonny to meet you and Buffy?

    ———- Forwarded message ———-
    From: Charles
    Date: Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 10:34 PM
    Subject: RE: Sorry we didn’t get to chat today
    To: “trent@prospectionsinc.com”

    Oh, buddy–you are a dear friend to me as Jim is and I know we will chat or meet together from time to time and all that. I really wish Heather and Jim’s wife could just see what an ordinary guy I am and how the Lord chose me for things. If I were them, I probably wouldn’t believe it myself! LOL And yes, our souls are listening and we will hear a priceless word from the Lord, if when when we sleep. Make us one, Father God, make us one. That the world may know You sent Your only son—-Fill us with the Love You’ve given us to share–and protect us from evil everywhere—For you have chosen that together we should be—a reflection of Your Love and Unity—Cleanse us from our low nature of sin–that You’re image may be seen in us again.—Send us in the world to be a channel of–all the glorious riches of Your Love. Then we’ll tell the world the truth of how You feel—That the world may know that Jesus” Love is real…..
    Charles–Oh, may that Light and Love of Jesus shine through me and shine through you..Oh let that Holy Love of Jesus make us new–Then we’ll share that Love You gave us to the world—-Oh let that precious Light of Jesus shine through me and shine through

    Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 22:03:45 -0500
    From: trent@prospectionsinc.com
    To: compassionateman@live.com
    Subject: Sorry we didn’t get to chat today

    Lets try tomorrow!
    Our souls are listening … may we hear a priceless word from the Lord, if even while we sleep.

    -Trent

  72. “Do ya’ll think that Buffy & I need to go meet this Charles & Lonny? What do you think about what this guys is saying? Weird?” (Heather)

    Trent sent this to you – concerning youself and Buffy meeting this dude named Charles and Lonny? Who are Charles and Lonny? Who are they affiliated with in this big religious web?

    I am not sure meeting people is a bad thing – per se – but if they try to spiritually bully you then I would just up and leave the room.

  73. Sorry that it’s been so long since I’ve written! Life has taken a weird turn since Trent & I are separated for the second time. Every time I think of writing it seems so hard because of all the stuff that’s going down. Again, I do not wish to NOT communicate with y’all but I’ve also been very sick and so has Buffy.

    Please pray for us especially now being the holidays. Trent and I have had some really nasty arguments/fights/words lately and it doesn’t look good for us.

    Again, it’s been hard thinking of coming on this blog letting you all know that we are separated again that I & Buffy have been really sick. Things don’t look good for now. There’s so much division between us. Trent is giving about 80% of his clothes to charity and I have a deep sinking feeling.

    Does anyone have any encouraging words?

    Heather

  74. Heather, do what is best by your heart – and continue to care about Trent – no one wishes the dissolution of anyone’s marriage (that is always a tough one to deal with).

    It’s too bad Trent feels his faith takes precedence over his marriage – I find that very sad and unfortunate. I think what is important to realize is that you are a valuable person and to continue to seek ways to love Trent is a good avenue to take (despite all the arguments and problems occuring).

    In the end, God is love – even when we feel unloved or lack of importance – God is faithful – even when the situation around you may not quite be. I do believe your faith will sustain you in this time of turmoil – it may be the only cold comfort.

    I know that all marriages can be saved or sustained – but it take 2 willing parties meeting as 1 for that to occur. Maybe Trent is forgetting he is your husband – and his oaths he swore in his vows. I am not sure how he feels about committment – but marriage is just that – a committment. The key is getting the conversation directed at the idea you both are married and want to seek the fulfillment of this committment.

    My words are quite weak and hollow – this much I know – but faith is not meant to destroy marriages – nor do the scriptures back that one up.

  75. Your words are encouraging so thanks brother! God has been showing me that I need to work on myself.

    Are you saying that God is against divorce? What are your beliefs on divorce? I go back and forth on that issue.

    HMF

  76. “Are you saying that God is against divorce? What are your beliefs on divorce? I go back and forth on that issue.” (Heather)

    I would say uncategorically God is not in favor of divorce – it’s a path that one needs to ‘harden their hearts’ to entertain – and this happens a lot in this day in age. Nowhere in scripture is a person of faith ever taught to ‘divorce’ – but rather the opposite seems to be a focal point for scripture (ie: do not break what God has put together, etc).

    The ideal state of marriage is to stay married – to work through the problems as a couple – and to find peace within that structure. We both know this isn’t always the case – but I find people are better quitters than survivors now a days. My wife and I are quite different – which is normal I think – and we have been together for 8 years (married for 4) and we have to deal with issues from time to time. What we do not do is ‘give up’ on one another in this relationship – we made that vow to one another…all things can be worked out. I find this is lacking in the marriage idea these days (for many people).

    My view of marriage is that if it is at all possible – both sides need to humble themselves and reconcile. I find it strange that Trent, who clams to serve God, is even considering this path – I am beyond understanding on how he can justify such an action? I questioned him on Gracehead concering this – guess who got the boot? I think he knows where he sits on this issue – and I am guessing he thinks it is at the right hand of God – maybe he should ask Timothy and see what he says (if Timothy is truly a prophet – breaking marriage is not something he can advocate).

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