Gentiles & Messianic Judaism (My Response)

and is the Word of HaShem” (Israel)

You do know this is Greco-Roman in nature – this concept – correct? From John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

Amy Jill Levine on the works of Philo “The Jewish philosopher Philo of A1exandria spoke of the manifestation of God on earth; he called this the “Logos” (Greek for “word”), which is the same term some early Christians applied to Jesus (as in the opening words of the Gospel of John, “In the beginning was the word”).”

For more on this line of reasoning see: http://www.myjewishlearning.com/history_community/Ancient/IntellectualTO/Philo_.htm

Philo…His philosophy, much of it in the Platonic mold, is a blend of the personal God of the Hebrew Bible and the abstract, perfect deity required by Greek metaphysics” (From Text to Tradition: A History of Second Temple and Rabbinic Judaism (Ktav) – Lawrence Schiffman)

We do not hold to any belief that I’m aware of that once you simply believe Yeshua is the Messiah that you cease to be a Gentile – since this is not normative in Judaism at all to recognize such as a Gentile” (Israel)

(a) Are you actually Jewish and a convert to Judaism? Or just a Messianic that is a convert of Christianity?

(b) You are asking for Gentiles to be Jewish – this is undeniable. I will break this down a bit more – but for starters – circumcision is a Jewish ritual (cultural and law) – Gentile cultures (including my own) really pay no mind to it as some standard of obedience.

Instead we fully believe, and can rightly document, that once someone decides to submit to the lordship of King Messiah, that they will make full teshuvah, and thus get circumcised, and do a mikvah of conversion since these things are clearly understood from the Torah as necessities to right behavior.” (Israel)

I repeat, if I desire to become a Judaic follower and convert to Judaism then I will follow these things – as they request. But if I want to be a Gentile Christian – then I see absolutely no need for it. Do I really have to make Paul’s case all over again – and the real Jerusalem Council from Acts? I will.

Acts 15:1 “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” (problem statement)

Acts 15:2 “Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them” (Paul is not on board with the idea)

Acts 15:5 “”It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.” (Circumcision – conversion – and Torah – standard guide – mentioned)

Acts 15:6 “The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter” (This was not a sure-fire case – it was to be debated amongst the council)

Acts 15:9-11 “He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.” (Peter’s verdict on the matter – nothing about circumcision or even halakah).

Acts 15:19-20 “Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.” (James judgment – 4 things – none of which are circumcision and 4 commandments only)

Acts 15:21 “For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.” (Point – this Jewish tradition will carry on irregardless – no matter if we include the Gentile masses or not)

How can one claim – from Acts 15 – the inclusion of the Gentiles into the Christian faith is through Jewish conversion? Nothing of the sort is so much as mentioned or upheld by Pharisee’s, Peter, or James (and the Holy Spirit for that matter – vs. 28).

Now for Paul.

Romans 4:12-13 “and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.” (Paul makes a differentiation between law and faith here – which includes those who were uncircumcised – the Romans he is writing to in this letter).

1 Corinthians 7:18-19 “Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God” (Good summation of Paul’s position on this)

Galatians 2:7-9 “But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised (for He who effectually worked for Peter in his apostleship to the circumcised effectually worked for me also to the Gentiles), and recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we might go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.” (Paul re-hashes Acts 15 in this letter – and guess what – nothing wrong with being uncircumcised – and this was quite understood by Paul and the real Jerusalem Council).

Galatians 5:6 “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love” (another good summation of Paul’s opinion of circumcision)

Colossians 2:11 “and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;” (Apparently circumcision ‘without hands’ – via faith – is also quite adequate)

Titus 1:10 “For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision” (Amazing – but this is a letter from Paul from so long ago – dealing with this same issue I am here today).

Fact is, if a Gentile wants to follow the Messiah – he can – and does not need to be circumcised or follow any rituals for that matter – these decisions were agreed upon by James, Peter, John, Pharisee’s, and Paul. Yet, for some reason, the Messianics of this age have to be correct? I will do more than prove this movement wrong – if we continue down this path – you have little to no scriptural backing for your position Israel.

If you feel the need to lose your culture – embrace Judaism – and follow it’s tenets – then so be it – I do not feel that need – I like my culture (First Nations in Canada/America – or Indian as you might know us). I follow the Messiah and his teachings (which I will give you are based on Torah – including also most of Paul’s works) – but I am not Jewish (sorry) and there is no requirement for me to be (according to the early church fore-runner’s of this faith to Gentiles).

I will come and debate you on your turf also – but I have to admit – you must shame Paul first before your position can hold any true weight.

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17 thoughts on “Gentiles & Messianic Judaism (My Response)

  1. How’s that for less than an hour’s work on this subject – boo yaaa!

    I know what is coming though – Matt 5:17-20 – you just know that is going to get pulled out and thrown into the fray – but it’s a lost casue that passage. The real Jerusalem Council and Paul both decided this issue anyways – plus Jesus never once really addresses this issue.

  2. I also am coming to believe the Messianics are believing a lie concerning being ‘Jewish’…when they are not. They think their conversion to Christianity – veiled in Jewish beliefs – makes them actually Jewish. Your conversion to Christianity does not change your culture – that’s ludicrous. But even if they think they are Jewish – they have not converted to Judaism but to Christianity so they are barking up the wrong ‘tree’ anyways.

  3. If HaShem is our tzaddik, how can he be such without having an interface? That is the Memra, the Davar HaShem, and is certainly not a “Greek” concept since the Torah’s teaching on the matter predates the existence of the Greek people.

    (a) Are you actually Jewish and a convert to Judaism? Or just a Messianic that is a convert of Christianity?

    If not already born Jewish, one converts to Judaism then through HaDerech, a sect of Judaism. “Christianity” is a paganized mixture of Mithraic worship, Marcionian poly-theistic two-god heresy, and ignorant sincerity, and we hardly believe one should convert to it.

    (b) You are asking for Gentiles to be Jewish – this is undeniable. I will break this down a bit more – but for starters – circumcision is a Jewish ritual (cultural and law) – Gentile cultures (including my own) really pay no mind to it as some standard of obedience.

    According to Jewish tradition, backed up by the Torah itself, Adam was created circumcised, and given the Torah to serve and guard.

    “Circumcision” means two things. It either means the circumcision ritual (consisting of getting circumcised, an oath to keep the Torah, present a sacrifice, and going through a mikveh) of the Pharisees which sought to turn a Gentile into a Jew for the purpose of securing for him a place in the World to Come based on Jewish identity alone (and the subsequent doing of the Torah in order to maintain that identity and not be “cut off”); or it meant the commandment of circumcision itself. Either or, but never together. Which is why Acts 15 differentiates the two with:

    Acts 15:5
    It is necessary to circumcise them “AND” to direct them to observe the Law of Moses. (emphasis mine)

    Clearly the circumcision referred to here is not the commandment of circumcision found in the Law of Moses, or else there would be no need to separate the two concepts with the Greek participle “te” translated as “and.”

    This then is an important clue as to understand what exactly was being debated in Acts 15. The issue was over being “saved” – that is, being guaranteed a place in the World to Come. Obviously, this is a gospel based on Jewish identity, rather than faith in the Messiah, and is clearly wrong, and against the Torah, as well as was demonstrated quite perceptibly by the Spirit coming upon the Gentiles, as was also prophesied by the Torah and prophets.

    So then, the minimum list (which excludes “love the LORD your God”) is not a maximum list of commandments for the “gentiles who are turning (making teshuvah) to God” for (because) “Moses (the Torah) is preached in the synagogues every Sabbath since ancient times.” The expectation is that the gentiles who are “turning to God” would be in the synagogues on Sabbath, learning Moses (the Torah). So then why the minimum list? To get them in the door. They had to show they have rejected idolatry, and its practices: idol sacrifices, eating blood, fornication, and meat strangled. (Which for Christians today would eliminate the celebrations of the pagan feasts of Christmas and Easter, eating meat that has not been made kosher through ritual slaughter, and all forms of fornication including adultery and spiritual adultery. I am not aware of any Christians who eat meat that has been strangled in this modern day.) Doing so allowed the “gentiles who are turning to God” to even be allowed in the synagogue to learn.

    How can one claim – from Acts 15 – the inclusion of the Gentiles into the Christian faith is through Jewish conversion? Nothing of the sort is so much as mentioned or upheld by Pharisee’s, Peter, or James (and the Holy Spirit for that matter – vs. 28).

    It’s not through identity that one is guaranteed a place in the World to Come, it’s through “the response of a good conscience toward God through Messiah Yeshua” (1 Pet 3:21) – a circumcised heart (Deut 10:16, 30:6) as Deut 30:6 says that if one has a circumcised heart, they will “live.”

    Yet is is with a circumcised heart that one then keeps the commandments of God, and does them. So then, a new convert will get circumcised, and commit to the Torah, and go through a mikveh of conversion, since all three of these things are in the Torah, as well as the certification by a Jewish beit din.

    Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God” – Paul.

    Paul was right in keeping the method of conversion to Judaism away from his gentile disciples since if they had gone through it, there would have been no good guarantee for Paul that they were converting for the right reasons (and instead most likely would have placed their faith to be guaranteed a place in the World to Come on identity alone, which is a false gospel). But “keeping the commandments” is what matters – and this includes the commandment of circumcision. So in one breath Paul is made to contradict himself by standard Christian traditional understanding, yet he is doing no such thing at all. He is simply instructing his disciples to remain as they are for the purpose of securing their place in the World to Come by their faith in the Promised Seed, not by faith in Jewish identity.

    For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision – Paul

    Precisely. They preach rebellion against the one in whom the name of HaShem is in, contrary to the Torah. And the Torah says that they will not be forgiven for doing so. Those “of the circumcision” that Paul was referring to where those who were preaching a gospel of securing a place in the World to Come by Jewish identity alone, or Jewish identity plus Messiah. We do not preach such at JerusalemCouncil.org. We teach Torah, submission to the King, the Tzaddik, HaShem, and faith that his perfect righteousness is what merits us to eternal life. Yet we do teach that after this, after you place your faith in His merit, that you now obey him, which means to obey the Torah, and eventually this means you will get circumcised (so you can do the Passover in “remembrance” of Him), commit to the Torah (so you can love God and others as he role modeled it, and not act presumptuously), and go through a mikveh of conversion ( like Noah in the flood, like Israel in Yom Suph, like dishes or spoils from the nations, like a woman captured from the nations, etc.)

    “Fact is, if a Gentile wants to follow the Messiah – he can – and does not need to be circumcised or follow any rituals for that matter”

    How can you “follow” Messiah who himself is circumcised and keeps the Torah and not do those things, especially when he says “if you love me, you will keep my commandments” – and the Torah are the commandments of the Messiah given to Moses on (who is counted in Heb 11 as one of “faith” before) Mt. Sinai in the presence of all the angels.

    The picture from the Torah is clear: we are redeemed from Egypt, from sin, from shame, and immersed in water, led into the wilderness to “serve HaShem” before the World to Come, and thus given the Torah as God’s perfect teaching and instruction in how to love God and others, and all this before we cross the Jordan into eternal life in the Promised Land.

  4. “If not already born Jewish, one converts to Judaism then through HaDerech, a sect of Judaism.” (Israel)

    HaDerech is not an accepted form of Judaism – so I am taking it you are not a convert to Judaism?

    My point being is that HaDerech is Christian.

    ““Christianity” is a paganized mixture of Mithraic worship, Marcionian poly-theistic two-god heresy, and ignorant sincerity, and we hardly believe one should convert to it.” (Israel)

    Albeit we both disagree with current versions and theologies of the church – that does not mean most of the people in that faith stream are not believers in God. I personally think what you follow (Messianic Judaism) is just another form of Christianity – veiled in additions Paul would not even add to Gentiles.

    ““Circumcision” means two things. It either means the circumcision ritual (consisting of getting circumcised, an oath to keep the Torah, present a sacrifice, and going through a mikveh) of the Pharisees which sought to turn a Gentile into a Jew for the purpose of securing for him a place in the World to Come based on Jewish identity alone (and the subsequent doing of the Torah in order to maintain that identity and not be “cut off”); or it meant the commandment of circumcision itself. Either or, but never together. Which is why Acts 15 differentiates the two” (Israel)

    How are they different? In one example you mention circumcision the ritual which is an ‘oath’ to keeping Torah (so they are tied in that example) or the commandment itself – which is in essence the same thing as your first example concerning the ritual…the commandment being the ritual…you do not differentiate them at all.

    “So then, the minimum list (which excludes “love the LORD your God”) is not a maximum list of commandments for the “gentiles who are turning (making teshuvah) to God” for (because) “Moses (the Torah) is preached in the synagogues every Sabbath since ancient times.” The expectation is that the gentiles who are “turning to God” would be in the synagogues on Sabbath, learning Moses (the Torah). So then why the minimum list? To get them in the door.” (Israel)

    I don’t agree at all. If this was minimizing list – which it may have been – the maximizing list never includes any ritual Holy Days or circumcision – not even on the basis of all the writings of the NT (gospels and letters).

    As for the Moses passage in Acts – it seems to me James is not making a big deal concerning Gentiles being added to the Jewish faith. Point – this Jewish tradition will carry on irregardless – no matter if we include the Gentile masses or not

    As for the list given to Paul in Acts 15 – he also breaks that list in his letters to Gentiles. He does allow them to eat food sacrificed to idols.

    1 Corinthians 8:4 “Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.” (Paul makes an argument for Gentiles to eat food sacrifices to idols – going against the Jerusalem Council – to Paul – even this commandment is not to be followed by Gentiles).

    “Yet is is with a circumcised heart that one then keeps the commandments of God, and does them. So then, a new convert will get circumcised, and commit to the Torah, and go through a mikveh of conversion, since all three of these things are in the Torah, as well as the certification by a Jewish beit din” (Israel)

    It seems to me you are missing the point of Paul concerning the idea of being ‘of the circumcision of the heart’ idea. It was so they did not literally have to get circumcised and become a Jewish convert – which it seems you advocate – because they were gentiles and not bound to Jewish law. Do I really have to go back to that passage and lay it all out here in full context also?

    “But “keeping the commandments” is what matters – and this includes the commandment of circumcision” (Israel)

    (a) This is double speak – it is saying Paul says ‘no’ to circumcision then wants ti applied? I broke this down in another comment concerning Galatians and this full argument but will suffice is that Paul does not say what you have him saying here.

    “Yet we do teach that after this, after you place your faith in His merit, that you now obey him, which means to obey the Torah, and eventually this means you will get circumcised (so you can do the Passover in “remembrance” of Him), commit to the Torah (so you can love God and others as he role modeled it, and not act presumptuously), and go through a mikveh of conversion” (Israel)

    Again, this is a hypocritical stance. You say you do not teach this concerning ritual – then you teach me you do…it’s one or the other but you can’t say you ‘do not’ teach this then tell me you do. Paul does not teach this – concerning circumcision – it’s never in his letters to Gentiles – and never does he support your position as you lay it out. And you think he would lay it out to quell the confusion over this issue. Instead he just adamantly tells Gentiles to ‘not get circumcised’.

    “How can you “follow” Messiah who himself is circumcised and keeps the Torah and not do those things, especially when he says “if you love me, you will keep my commandments” – and the Torah are the commandments of the Messiah given to Moses on (who is counted in Heb 11 as one of “faith” before) Mt. Sinai in the presence of all the angels.” (Israel)

    Again, Jesus was Jewish and was circumcised at a young age – as part of his culture and faith. So it does not matter if he was – he never teaches on it for Gentiles – or do you have an exact passage where Jesus teaches on circumcision? It eludes me.

    As for the commandments idea – well that’s the real big question – what are those commandments and how come – if your position is true – I can’t find it anywhere in gospels or letters? It seems to me the addition to the texts is happening from your side concerning adding in Jewish ritual to Gentile Christian faith – and this is the same thing Paul dis-avowed in all of his letters. Even Peter is not even found to hold this up (nor James and John).

    Being a messianic Jew is to be a Christian but to add in Jewish elements to the conversion process – and this cannot be backed up from actual NT passages. You have make the conclusions based on piece meal fragments to defend this point of view – from Matthew 5:17 and John 1:1 and then use their vagueness for your proof texts.

  5. You bring up many good points that need addressing. Trust me, there is no piecemeal going on.

    I invite you to chat with me in our chat room (requires board registration):

    http://jerusalemcouncil.org/midrash/pjirc.php

    Let me make this simple statement that I will be more than enough to resolve your disagreement with me:

    Define any commandment in the Torah as not in the category of loving “the LORD your God.”

  6. “Define any commandment in the Torah as not in the category of loving “the LORD your God.”” (israel)

    This is my point also – the summation is good enough for the Gentiles – cause in that they fulfill the Torah (moral commandmnets anyways – not neccesarily ritual ones).

  7. Israel, I will come to hte chat but I do work until 4:30 so I cannot be in there for some time during the days – I have no problem debating many of these issues.

  8. “If all the commandments of God “hang” from “love the LORD your God” – how then can any commandment of God not be a moral commandment?” (Israel)

    I am not saying the commandments are not moral – they all exist for the benefit of that society – and that is how they functioned (religion and state being intermingled).

    But if they all hang from that commandment – then what is essential for the Gentile? When they are to discuss this issue – the core compenent (the summation – 2 of them) – will suffice. They will build their morals from these ideas – which are really only 2 commandments.

    (a) Love God

    (b) Love your neighbor as yourself (or treat others how you want to be treated)

    These are the core ideas/intents of the law – and if a gentile follows these as leads for building their religious paradigm then they are doing well. If there was more to it – then why didn’t any of the gospels bring that out? Or Acts? Or Peter? Or John? Or James? Or Paul? No one seems to bring more to the table concerning Gentiles – and I can prove this from all of their letters and gospels.

    Your ideas concerning conversion to Judaism (even for a Gentile Christian) cannot be proven from the NT disciples writings or even those quoted to Jesus (the Messiah). The real question is – are you hanging more on those commandments than is really there? I believe so.

  9. (a) Love God

    (b) Love your neighbor as yourself

    These are the core ideas/intents of the law – and if a gentile follows these as leads for building their religious paradigm then they are doing well. (societyvs)

    But that’s the whole point. How can they build any paradigm based on “love God” and “love your neighbor” if “love” is not defined, if “God” is not defined, if “your neighbor” is not defined? What you define as love, and what someone else may define as love, may be entirely contradictory. Is God the God of confusion? No. Those definitions are not arbitrary (or else you’re preaching relativism) – instead the Torah teaches us what each of those items exactly mean – there is no guesswork (which is why the apostles don’t have to bother explaining!). Thus, in order to even obey “love God” you have to consult the Torah as to how. Love is not just a feeling, its a verb. It’s what you do. The Torah defines what the doing of love is. Same also with “love your neighbor as yourself” you have to consult the Torah as to how. The Torah is one commandment, beautifully explained within itself.

    Believers in Messiah are not left without a solid guide in how to love God and love others. God doesn’t leave us with some floaty, cloudy, vague expectation from which we are to define what love is for ourselves contrary to him and our neighbor. On the contrary, God is a God of truth, and the Torah is truth, and the standard for right and wrong. The standard in defining love (which was perfectly role modeled for us by the perfectly righteous Messiah), never changes, since God, who is love, doesn’t change. God is not arbitrary, and neither is the Torah, the perfect standard in how to love God and others.

  10. “instead the Torah teaches us what each of those items exactly mean – there is no guesswork (which is why the apostles don’t have to bother explaining!).” (Israel)

    But the apostles do bother explaining – namely John in his letter.

    1 John 4:20 “If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.”

    Oddly enough – the 2nd great commandment defines the 1st one…and love is seen as the opposite of hate.

    I am not saying you don’t have a point – love, God, and treatment of neighbor need to be broken down – but the gentiles have gospel and letters – they were not given Torah – in essence – they are given teachings on Torah to guide them.

    My Question: If I as a Gentile follow teachings from Torah (moral relevance without any of the cultural ritual) and follow them to worship God – am I breaking Torah or keeping it? Am I honoring God or breaking God’s heart?

    This is my only real concern – since you seem to believe that I as a gentile need to adhere to Jewish custom and ritual – when I am quite happy with my own culture – but I also enjoy following the teachings of Jesus (and the letters) concerning Torah.

    Question: If I follow the intent of the law without the Jewish cultural ritual – how am I actually breaking any moral law?

    This is also my point – again – what better a person will circumcision make me? Just by being circumcised I become more moral in that ________?

  11. 1 John 4:20 “If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.”

    Define love, and define hate, apart from the Torah you can’t.

    I am not saying you don’t have a point – love, God, and treatment of neighbor need to be broken down – but the gentiles have gospel and letters – they were not given Torah – in essence – they are given teachings on Torah to guide them.

    Then according to that logic, beastiality (sex with animals) is permitted of Gentiles, because beastiality isn’t specifically mentioned in the Latter Writings of the apostles. You can’t tell the Gentiles to repent to something they weren’t given. Something condemns the Gentiles so that they need Messiah, what is that something? The Torah.

    My Question: If I as a Gentile follow teachings from Torah (moral relevance without any of the cultural ritual) and follow them to worship God – am I breaking Torah or keeping it? Am I honoring God or breaking God’s heart? (societyvs)

    If you fail to keep the whole law, then you are guilty of breaking all of it – and thus failed to love God. If you ignore what you call “ceremony” then you ignore a commandment of the law, and have broken all the law, including the command to love God; no matter if you say you are loving God. Since we know the Torah is the heart of God because the last letter of the Torah is a lamed (L) and the first letter is a bet (B) and together they are the hebrew word “lev” which means “heart” – then breaking any commandment of the Torah, no matter how small, or insigificant, is by definition, breaking God’s heart.

    Question: If I follow the intent of the law without the Jewish cultural ritual – how am I actually breaking any moral law? (societyvs)

    If you break any of God’s written instructions explicit, implied, or derived from the Torah, then you have failed to love God. Let’s look at a particular example: choosing not to wear tzitzit:

    1. by not wearing what God commands you, you have said that God is not your God, and that you do not love him for you do not love his ways.
    2a. You have put yourself as god before HaShem.
    2b. You have made what you wear an idol that is more important than what God tells you to wear.
    3. You have profaned God’s name, for claiming to be of HaShem you do not do the works that HaShem commands you.
    4. You have failed to enter into Sabbath because you have something against God and can not meet with him at the altar of incense (which is prayer).
    5. You have dishonored God your father, and the Torah your mother.
    6. You have committed adultery by lusting after being clothed in your own way and not HaShem’s way, saying you “love not wearing tzitzit,and want to look like the nation(s) around” you.
    7. You have stolen from the Torah by taking away from it what it commands, and you have robbed yourself of the blessing of obedience for wearing tzitzit.
    8. You have born false witness against your neighbor, claiming that the Torah says one thing when it does not, and you have testified that God is a liar.
    9. You have coveted after the nations the things they wear, as opposed to what HaShem gives you and commands you to wear.
    10. You have coveted your neighbor’s wife by desiring his definition of God that is not who HaShem is at all.

    By failing to keep something like tzitzit, you have broken all 10 Words – and this is so of any commandment you fail to keep.

    This is also my point – again – what better a person will circumcision make me? Just by being circumcised I become more moral in that ________? (societyvs)

    Like all of God’s commandments, it’s an opportunity to show you love God, and your neighbor. God, for he commands it, your neighbor for now you can fellowship with him over Passover, and witness that you too believe the Messiah does not come through man’s effort, but through the seed of the woman.

  12. I should clarify what “implied and derived from Torah” means. I mean that the Torah teaches us what we must do with an ox that gores a man. By implication then it also covers if a woman is mauled by a dog, even though the Torah doesn’t mention such at all.

  13. “Define love, and define hate, apart from the Torah you can’t” (Israel)

    Sure I can – sure people in China can – sure people in India can – Sure people in South America can – sure people have done this through-out all of history without as much as hearing the term ‘Torah’.

    You are talking about the most basic of terms in human relations – one with another. As new people are born – new people will have to define how they will love their fellow people and what role hate will play. Prior to ever reading any of this as a child – I knew when I was committing acts of hatred (ie: punching someone) and acts of love (ie: hugging someone).

    Not saying Torah will not aid one in this endeavor – we all need some direction. But again – not everything God commands is moral in nature. The building of the ark or the building of the temple – how is that moral? Those are just building things…there may be moral by-products of working together (or immoral ones also) – but the actions themselves are amoral.

    “Then according to that logic, beastiality (sex with animals) is permitted of Gentiles” (Israel)

    Not really – Paul does teach that Gentiles are led by the Spirit of God and have a type of ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ built into them (he calls it a law) (Romans 1:19 idea). Common sense would tell someone to not have sex with a donkey – for example.

    In all honesty, when I first started reading these teachings I had no clue beastiality was even a law – yet I knew not to do it. Some things are not in Torah either you know – like if I wanted give my cat my last name – what does Torah say? Probably not much.

    “If you fail to keep the whole law, then you are guilty of breaking all of it – and thus failed to love God.” (Israel)

    What more can I say – according to your faith system I do not love God – thankfully that’s all cleared up. I guess I am in the same boat as Paul on his one – well the communtites he spoke to I mean – he was likely okay – he was Jewish.

    “By failing to keep something like tzitzit, you have broken all 10 Words – and this is so of any commandment you fail to keep.” (Israel)

    Wow, the logic is flawless. I decide I don’t want to keep tzitizit and I have committed adultery, dishonred my gentile parents, I am a thief, lied about my neighbor, and even coveted those things of my neighbors.

    If what you said there passes for logical conclusions to wearing tzitzit – then I’d hate to not be circumcised – I’d likely be guilty of murder and some terrorist plot by virtue.
    All in all – that logic is ludicrous to assume because:

    (a) It’s very illogical and not true
    (b) It assumes as a gentile I need to wear tzitzit
    (c) It jumps from a minor infraction to include major one’s – which have no basis in action or reality.

    You logic is so weird that if it were true – the whole wordl would be guilty by association – and for not being Jewish. I think real synagogues might want to have some words with your teachings. No one can be guilty for actions they do no committ.

    “Like all of God’s commandments, it’s an opportunity to show you love God, and your neighbor” (Israel)

    Still doesn’t answer the question – what is moral about circumcision? I know for a fact I can have a meal with people without being circumcised and share with them – and them with me. Paul teaches against gentiles getting circumcised – irregardless of Passover – and for some reason you do not take him at his word. What makes me think you even hear a word I am saying – you cannot even answer what makes circumcision a moral action? I proclaim here today ‘circumcision is an amoral action’.

  14. new people will have to define how they will love their fellow people and what role hate will play. (societyvs)

    Oh, ok. So you’re saying when a rapist defines love as raping as many women as he can, that he actually is showing love because he defines that as love. Or better yet, an entire society based on raping people where getting raped is the norm. Ok, I get it. You just justified every sin known and unknown to mankind, as not being sin.

    So now you don’t believe in moral absolutes, which means now that the Torah really isn’t the standard for sin, for anyone at all – including Jews since each person or group of people really set the standard, not God, and thus really we all don’t sin at all, haven’t sinned, and don’t need a Messiah to save us from sin – since if we believe we aren’t sinning we wouldn’t be! Tadah! I live forever. Not.

    Deut 29:19-20 says to such a person:

    “When such a person hears the words of this curse, he invokes a blessing on himself and therefore thinks, “I will be safe, even though I persist in going my own way.” This will bring disaster on the watered land as well as the dry. The LORD will never be willing to forgive him; his wrath and zeal will burn against that man. All the curses written in this book will fall upon him, and the LORD will blot out his name from under heaven.”

    The building of the ark or the building of the temple – how is that moral?(soceityvs)

    ark: saved humanity, continued the existence of mankind (wow, sounds like an act of mercy from love)
    temple: a gift, a dwelling for God with man, a place where man can meet God face to face and interact with him beyond just the normal experiences of life (wow, sounds like an act of love to want to meet face to face with God and have access to such on earth right now).

    Common sense would tell someone to not have sex with a donkey – for example. (societyvs)

    Please tell that to the Canaanites, and every culture in history that practiced open and “normal” bestiality rituals in their temples. “Common sense” as you label it, isn’t so “common.” There must be a moral absolute standard for truth, right and wrong, and that is none other than the walk of Messiah himself, described in total detail as the Torah in your bible.

    You logic is so weird that if it were true – the whole wordl would be guilty by association – and for not being Jewish. (societyvs)

    If what you said there passes for logical conclusions to wearing tzitzit – then I’d hate to not be circumcised – I’d likely be guilty of murder and some terrorist plot by virtue.(societyvs)

    We are all guilty of murdering the Messiah whenever we sin.

    All in all – that logic is ludicrous to assume because:

    (a) It’s very illogical and not true (societyvs)

    I think you need to take a class in logic. Saying something is illogical just because it’s “illogical” doesn’t make your statement true, and is a textbook example of circular reasoning.

    (b) It assumes as a gentile I need to wear tzitzit (soceitvs)

    Not as a gentile, but as one called to be of the seed of the woman, the people of God, his treasured people, a holy people to HaShem, Israel herself. That you choose not to associate with the people of God, nor identify with them only shows your true condition before HaShem as one opposed to him.

    (c) It jumps from a minor infraction to include major one’s – which have no basis in action or reality.
    (societyvs)

    It is written that if you break one law, you break them all. I didn’t write that. The apostle John did, and he was referring to the Shema which puts the entire Torah into one commandment as it is written “be care to observe all this commandment.”

    what is moral about circumcision? (societyvs)

    Because God commanded it. It also shows that you identify with the people of God, and are truly Abraham’s offspring, and allows you to be able to participate with others in Passover which is done “in remembrance” of the Messiah. It’s an act of love that declares in your flesh that you too believe the Messiah did not come by man’s effort.

    I proclaim here today ‘circumcision is an amoral action’. (societyvs)

    Then I am not talking with someone who loves God. I am talking then with someone who thinks they are God. Shalom.

  15. Messianic Gentiles are not called to convert to Judaism, but rather look at the written Word of G-d in the Torah and follow His commandments and feast days. G-d did not provide these things just for the Jewish people, but for the commonwealth of Israel, which does include Gentiles who are grafted in by believing in Yeshua HaMashiach and accepting His commandments.

    Many Messianic congregations that have both Jew and Gentile do worship in a very Jewish context. It can be a challenge for Messianic Gentiles to figure out how to worship the G-d of Abraham, Issac and Jacob in a Biblically-correct context without becoming something they are not. But G-d’s commandments are meant for all to follow, whether it’s traditional Judaism or not.

  16. You know what – messianic center – I’ll let you have this one because on some personal level – I know you are just towing the line of what is likely just another Evangelical church – couched as a Messianic synagogue – when this is not asked of us anyways…but if you feel the need – have at er’.

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