The Messianic Contention is Implied?

Like all of God’s commandments, it’s an opportunity to show you love God, and your neighbor” (Israel)

Still doesn’t answer the question – what is moral about circumcision. I proclaim here today ‘circumcision is an amoral action’

The contention with Messianics is that Gentile Christians are to follow all of the Torah – including the rituals (ie: circumcision/kosher) and festivals (ie: Unleavened Bread, Sukkot, Passover, etc). However I find little proof for the idea. I find logic works against such an idea.

We can rightly deduce from precedent, and from the example of Timothy, that he is temporarily limiting Jewish conversion for his Corinthian disciples because of the danger that they would be converting from the wrong reason” (Israel)

Then Paul broke the commandment – because you claim they are celebrating a feast in chapter 5 – but by chapter 7 we know this cannot be so according to the rules you live by – some of them are not circumcised “Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised”. So which is it – they celebrated those feasts/festivals or they didn’t?

You claim Paul thought they were getting circumcised for all the wrong reasons – to secure salvation. This may be so – but then Paul’s answer is to tell people to not be circumcised? If he believes this is what God wants anyways – why doesn’t he just allow the circumcision and explain it to them later? That boggles my mind.

If I knew my faith required me to be circucmcised and people were doing it for the wrong reason – should I not do what is required? Yet Paul, is stopping people! That is such a stupid stance to take when he can as easily say ‘get circumcised to keep with your faith’ and explain it all in his letter to the confusion surrounding the issue. He stops people that are gentiles – regardless.

For me the problem is – where is it Gentiles are explicitly explained how to follow these festivals and rituals? Any quick search of the NT texts will reveal Paul is stopping people from being circumcised – festivals are non extant in the gospels and letters – and Acts says nothing on the issue.

The justification according to Messianics is already in the passages – although not explicitly mentioned – they are implied in the finer details. This is where I disagree.

These letters and gospels are written to Gentiles – yet nothing outlines for them how to enact and celebrate these festivals or rituals. The one’s metioned are a passover meal (not the whole passover celebration) and a baptism. No explanation of the rest has to mean no familiarity with them. Plus nowhere are they commanded to observe these things – and repeat – nowhere.

Should one follow this path on the basis of flimsy evidence?

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17 thoughts on “The Messianic Contention is Implied?

  1. Anyone else have anything to add to the convo – I hate going this alone (lol)?

    I think my biggest problem with the idea of Messianics is that they require me to shred my cultural heritage for a Jewish one – or to supplement what we celebrate in our culture with that of another – one that is actually also ‘foreign’ to me as it would be (in an ironic twist of fate).

    They also are not an official branch of Judaism – and I am not sure partaking in that is helpful to me or to Judaism as a movement. I am glad just to be a friend to the jewish nation and to suppport where and when I can – I am not sure this is the support the Jewish nation would want me to consider?

    See, my duty is to ‘love my neighbor’ and Jewish people are my neighbors – friends even. Maybe this is not seen as loving to them to join such a movement? All things being considered – it’s not an offical piece of Judaism and is considered an affront to many people within Judaism. Why would I want to insult people that do nothing to me? That’s not really a ‘loving’ stance to take.

    Call me a friend to Judaism – beyond that – I am not sure what more I can do.

  2. Oh yeah, I will be celebrating Halloween tomorrow – as I do every year – and having a blast doing it. With my wife and many friends – some dancing – some drinking – just plain old fun with my ‘neighbors’. There will be candies for kids who come to my house – sharing I think they call it (or communism in disguise). Either way, I am going to have a blast (I hope).

  3. Jason,
    I’ll just change a teaching of Judaism from 1st person to 2nd. “If you become me, who will be you?” We all have different roles, the picture of the various tribes around the tabernacle I wrote about on Northvus last spring….Getting Along.

    Jason, you are a respectful friend. You can come to my house and enjoy a meal without trying to steal everything I own! You even bring along your own food to share.

    Don’t know if you remember this piece I wrote from a mishnah lesson a few months back:

    One of our rabbis taught a lesson from Mishnah yesterday morning on Jews and non-Jews interacting over the baking of bread. I’ll have to add the mishnah text at a later date since I don’t have it with me at the moment, but what was interesting is that so many centuries ago people were trying to figure out how to interact and what the extent of interactions should be even as we are today.

    They interacted and shared food, each according to their own traditions without taking on the tradition of the other person. The Jew was required to tithe from their portion, the Jew was required to say appropriate blessings. The non-Jew wasn’t required to tithe nor say any blessing. The Jew wasn’t to tithe or say a blessing over the portion that wasn’t theirs.

    The Jew and non-Jew didn’t live their lives in total isolation from each other, but when it came to religious practice they each stayed true to their own and respectful of each others’. To me, it is sort of like when we’ve eaten at my brother’s house. The kids and I sat quietly through my brother’s praying at the start of the meal. We didn’t fold our hands or bow our heads, we just sat quietly. When my brother was finished, we shared the food which was appropriate for us to eat and just ignored the food that wasn’t. We were able to have a pleasant meal together in spite of our many differences in religious practice.

    In this mishnah I saw a respectful way of getting along. The non-Jew wasn’t inserting themselves where they had no place and wasn’t getting involved in what had nothing to do with them. The Jew wasn’t giving lessons on how to be Jewish, nor looking down on the non-Jew as somehow inferior. The Jew wasn’t trying to live like a non-Jew either, ignoring Jewish traditions because of their non-Jewish companion but was instead just quietly followed Jewish traditions.

  4. I don’t think I am doing enough study on the “messianics”. What exactly is their message?

    Are they suggesting that if I accept Jesus as Messiah, then I become a Jew, regardless if I was born a Jew or not, and therefore I am free to follow the Torah and practice the rituals?

    Because what I am reading about the “messianics”, which is mostly at this blog, is basically just a western style of Christianity with some modifications and an emphasis on following Judaism, but a Judaism that is different from the Judaism of Yael’s people.

    I’m probably just being lazy, since I don’t want to do research into another religion. So I need a little help, well alot of help actually…… but that’s another story. 🙂

    Happy Halloween!!!! For me its the best day of the year, although I celebrate it in a quiet way.

  5. “Like all of God’s commandments, it’s an opportunity to show you love God, and your neighbor” (Israel)

    Still doesn’t answer the question – what is moral about circumcision. I proclaim here today ‘circumcision is an amoral action’ (societyvs)

    If God commands something, it’s moral. If you don’t do what he commands, you do not love him, as Yeshua said clearly “if you love me, you will obey my commandments.” Unless you believe Yeshua taught commandments that are in addition or subtraction of the Torah, he is clearly equating the keeping of God’s commandments (all of them) with love of God (and thus moral). This is evident in the Shema “And you shall love the Lord your God” – referring to the entirety of God’s commandments, including circumcision.

    Then Paul broke the commandment – because you claim they are celebrating a feast in chapter 5 – but by chapter 7 we know this cannot be so according to the rules you live by – some of them are not circumcised “Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised”. So which is it – they celebrated those feasts/festivals or they didn’t? (societyvs)

    When Paul says “circumcision is nothing, what matters is keeping the commandments of God” then CLEARLY he is not equating “circumcision” with the commandments of God. Thus this is prima facie evidence that his use of his term “circumcision” is NOT REFERRING to the commandment of circumcision as found in the Torah, or else Paul could not make that statement in the same sentence. To too also in Acts 15 we see “circumcision AND observe the law” – two separated items separated by the conjunction “and.” Thus in Paul’s day the term “circumcision” referred not to the biblical commandment of circumcision at all, or else the two could not be juxtaposed. This is basic, plain, obvious hermeneutical logic.

    For me the problem is – where is it Gentiles are explicitly explained how to follow these festivals and rituals? Any quick search of the NT texts will reveal Paul is stopping people from being circumcised – festivals are non extant in the gospels and letters – and Acts says nothing on the issue. (societyvs)

    Why are you limiting your search to the writings of the apostles only? Don’t you yet realize that their entire teaching stands or falls according to the words of the Torah? If what they teach is not found in the Torah, we must reject them. If what they teach is true, then we MUST find their teaching in the Torah. This is Jewish Bible Study 101: the Torah is the foundation for all doctrine and truth, and any addition or subtraction from it, is profane. Thus if the Torah teaches that Gentiles are to be circumcised to keep Passover, then if we hold the apostles to not be false prophets, they too must agree that Gentiles must be circumcised in order to keep Passover. This shouldn’t be that difficult to understand. The problem is, you’re still attempting to view the bible backwards: that the apostles override the Torah, when in fact the Torah should override any understanding you have of the apostles.

    But since you have a hard time with taking the Torah literally, let alone midrashically, then you’ve got a more serious problem since you seem to not even believe the Torah when it says something is true. Thus, I ask in all seriousness, what God do you serve? One of your own imagination, or that of the Torah’s? It sounds to me that if you don’t trust the Torah when it says God made Adam and Eve (and it doesn’t hint that it’s an allegory), then you still are in idolatry and still have not repented and returned to the one true God and trusted him for anything but for your own good feelings.

  6. Thejust1,
    The messianics do NOT practice Judaism. They practice a perverted form of Christianity in which some distorted Jewish rituals are included. Please do not call their system Judaism. To do so is to insult Jews all through the ages.

    They don’t say you are ‘free’ to do anything. They claim you are obligated.

    Enjoy your Halloween celebration. I’m outta here for Shabbat.

  7. They practice a perverted form of Christianity in which some distorted Jewish rituals are included. (yael)

    That is what I thought.

    Sorry about the insult to Judaism and its followers. It was careless of me to suggest that they were practicing a form of Judaism, when it is obvious that they are not. I apologize, it won’t happen again.

  8. Thejust1,
    Apology accepted, no problem. This is just a really important point to make. They are making fraudulent claims to a name and tradition to which they have no claim.

    “In a document ratified by the religious leaders of all four major Jewish denominations (Conservative, Orthodox, Reconstructionist and Reform), it is stated that:Jewish leadership had unequivocally declared ‘Hebrew Christians’ as completely separate and disassociated from the Jewish community.

    Though Hebrew Christianity claims to be a form of Judaism, it is not. It is nothing more than a disguised effort to missionize Jews and convert them to Christianity…
    Hebrew Christians are in radical conflict with the communal interests and destiny of the Jewish people. They have crossed an unbreachable chasm by accepting another
    religion. Despite this separation, they continue to attempt to convert their former co-religionists.

    As a matter of fact, responsible Christian leaders agree with this and go one step further—they will tell you that these so-called “Messianic Jews” (as Hebrew-Christians prefer to be called), are neither representing true Judaism, nor are they conveying true Christianity!

    The Jewish Community works alongside the Christian community on a variety of common concerns. Christians of good faith recognize the distinction between our two faiths, and would never think of redefining Judaism in order to convert Jewish people.

    A columnist in the Catholic New York states: In short, they [Messianic Jews] attempt to … ‘sell’ Jews (particularly the young and vulnerable) a truncated version of Christianity. At the same time, they selectively appropriate elements of sacred Jewish tradition and practice. The result is a fundamental distortion of authentic Christianity and a denigration of the integrity of Judaism.”

    Truth in Advertising, Jews for Judaism

    Worse, the guys flooding this blog with their propaganda are not even Jewish to begin with and claim to be ‘post missionary’ yet they comment endlessly to convince Jason that he must ‘convert’ and become like them? How is that being ‘post-missionary’? It’s just another twist to the same old story. Notice they don’t tell me I need to convert, just that I need to let them have free access to our communities, such nice people they are and all, in a ‘Trojan Horse’ attempt to destroy us from within.

    There are Jews who fall for this kind of thing of course, very sad, but by far and away the greatest number of people involved in this messianic stuff are Christians and not Jewish at all. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s religion. It seems for some Christians, Jesus, who is supposed to be all they need, is a bit lacking.

  9. Here was my weekend in a nutshell:

    Friday – Halloween party with all my friends from University – very fun time (I was dracula for the night)

    Saturday – saw Bob Dylan in concert – my favorite song writer of all time.

    What an awesome weekend!

  10. Dracula huh. You Christians and your fascination with blood…. 8)

    Florida trounced Georgia! That was the extent of my weekend’s excitement. Lived in Florida 20 years ago and have been a fan ever since. Go Gators!

  11. “Though Hebrew Christianity claims to be a form of Judaism, it is not. It is nothing more than a disguised effort to missionize Jews and convert them to Christianity…” (yaelbatsarah)

    Has it even once considered crossing your mind that we keep the Torah because we actually love God, and are devoted disciples of Yeshua, and that what you call “missionizing” is nothing more than an attempt on our part to justify our obedience to the Torah in the face of opposition? Societyvs brought up objections that if true, would undermine our desire and drive to make teshuvah as Yeshua taught it. That you call our defense of our Torah obedience, “missionizing,” probably in all likelihood is due to the fact you choose to ignore teshuvah when you see it, since even Abraham was considered the greatest evangelist of his own day in his own tent – and all he did was live out Torah and open his tent doors to teach others to do the same. If you’re looking for missionaries, then the Chabadniks are more so missionaries than Messianic Judaism.

    “Hebrew Christians are in radical conflict with the communal interests and destiny of the Jewish people.” (yaelbatsarah)

    Name one communal interest or destiny that is in radical conflict with the Jewish people and Messianic Jews. Name just one. This charge is so often thrown out as fear-mongering it’s ridiculous. Name just one communal interest or destiny that is in radical conflict between Messianic Judaism and greater Judaism.

    “They have crossed an unbreachable chasm by accepting another
    religion.” (yaelbatsarah)

    When one crosses into idolatry, we most certainly agree. We disagree however, from the Torah, that belief in Yeshua as being the Word of HaShem, and thus the Messiah, constitutes idolatry. And so far, no objection to this stance has ever been put forth by the Jewish community, because there is no objection to believing that HaShem alone is Israel’s King, Redeemer, and Savior.

    “Despite this separation, they continue to attempt to convert their former co-religionists.” (yaelbatsarah)

    If we make converts, it’s not because of what we say more than what it is we do. And what we do is Torah, and on that level will challenge anyone to prove us wrong.

    “They don’t say you are ‘free’ to do anything. They claim you are obligated.” (yaelbatsarah)

    No one is free to sin, for in the End of Days, all will be called to account, or do you not believe this? If so, then why do you continue to pray so that your sins may be atoned for, do good deeds to fix the universe, and give to charity to merit a reward in the World Now, and in the World to Come?

  12. The statements attributed to me by this messianic fraud are from the article I linked from the Jews for Judaism site. If he has issues with these statements he can take their complaints to that site. I do not waste my time talking to messianics.

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