Thelema is Dead.

I want to state uncategorically what I think of the Thelema ideas of Crowley…

Thelema is dead. It’s aeon has passed. Crowley died in 1947 and with him that same idea ended it’s ‘magical run’. It sought to encompass a new generation but the masses ‘rejected it’ – the aeon we are currently in is still in progress.

Sure some spirit named ‘aiwass’ didn’t tell me this – common sense did. I am 34 and this is the first I am hearing of this idea of Thelema – it’s so far underground or hidden in secret societies it’s obviously not for the masses of this aeon. Maybe next aeon? Maybe no aeon? Maybe it was a good run for some 40+ years and that was it’s ‘generation’. (Generation a play on numbers – 40 means a generation).

So Thelemites, take rest and start to embrace reality again as it really looks…life has it’s ups and downs…we suffer and we survive…not everything we do makes sense (we makes sense of what happens to us – via perspective)…and we just might not have destinies that need to be lived out (outside of living a meaningful life to those around us). Welcome to humanity – we welcome you back to common sense.

We don’t need some secret order of the cloth of A.A. or some other priestly practice of some copied order of the Masons…it’s been done. We don’t need freedom for our sexual practices (see the 60’s); We don’t need useless magick/trickery; We don’t need another spirit telling us some secret’s from the Sumerian god-hood (4th kind as a movie will suffice for that); We don’t need a prophet who crucifies frogs or struggled with his ‘true will’…in fact we don’t need another prophet; We don’t need re-invention of Christian practices – no one is requesting it;  We don’t need a new law – as if the old one wasn’t working; We don’t need no thought control.

Thelema is dead…and it’s laws of freedom which were always apparent in true democracy have been realized. Sleep easy Mr. Crowley.

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75 thoughts on “Thelema is Dead.

  1. agreed completely. now i gotta resist attacking that site… i can’t stand stupidity and overly-simple answers. ugh. makes me wanna hurl but i do no service to myself in doing so… oh well… that’ll be my last comment on that subject.

  2. I find it ironic that there is now comment moderatino on that site. that’s a violation of my will. where’s the love dawg?

    first sentence true, second false. 😉

  3. Checked – left some comments – I’ve been censored. I guess in their system with ‘no rules and regulations’ there is one…don’t ask questions about it (just believe it).

  4. If you understood the aeonic theory and what it means to be in the Aeon of Horus, under the Law of Thelema, you would realize the irony of your post.

  5. “If you understood the aeonic theory and what it means to be in the Aeon of Horus, under the Law of Thelema, you would realize the irony of your post” (Neal)

    Possibly – then again – getting answers from people that follow this ‘mystery cult’ is pretty tough…no one seems to want to share.

    As for the aeonic theory – Christianity is dead wouldn’t let me share this but I’ll share it here.

    Why is Thelema the ushering in of the new Aeon – and Crowley it’s prophet? Why not Joseph Smith (Mormons) or even the Joehovah’s Winesses? Or what about newer more progressive movements in Christianity? Or better yet, maybe there is no new aeon that occured around 1904? Had it been 1960 – with the Beatles – I might bother to say there was some proof.

    As for the law of thelema and this ‘new age’ – why that law? Just because hedonism (or individualism or secularism) runs rampant in Western civilization doesn’t mean Crowley was right about a ‘new aeon’ that effects the whole world…cause is doesn’t. Hell, I could of predicted that in 1904 with the advent of Darwinism.

    Crowley wasn’t even that famous – more infamous than anything. And for someone that was ushering in a new aeon his following never really caught on and became a fire across the nation…what does he have for adherents – some 2000 people maybe – of some 60 million+ in the West. Statistically he isn’t ushering in anything anytime soon.

    Just because you see changes in society does not mean they are because of a ‘new aeon’ ushered in. And even if this were so…no one believes thelema was the cause (maybe some 2000 people do). I would say the advent of 2 world wars, darwinism, equality movements, and teenage angst/rebellion were all factors. Crowley would rank pretty low on a scale that changed the 1900’s (IMO) – even Freud was more dynamic.

    Thelema is still dead.

    • Thelema is NOT Dead. I will prove it before I am Dead.

      Here is a script from the book “Magick in Theory and Practice” with the clues that can help you understand why some people are experiencing the number 11 Phenomenon and how important number 11 is in Thelema. In fact, we are currently experiencing Crowley’s Number 11 Prophecy. Read on

      “The number 11 means, in the Tree of Life, the Sphere of Daath. In the Hebraic Language Daath means “knowledge” or “Abyss”, being the Sephira located in the limit between the Superior Triad (Kether, Chokmah and Binah) and the Sephiroth located at the more manifested world. Daath is where takes place phenomenon usually known as the “Black Night of the Soul”, when the adept stands at the mental state represented by the daemon Choronzon. Transpass this state of the mind is essential to reach the consecration of the Great Work. To reach Daath is necessary, first, to take contact with the Holy Guardian Angel, who conducts the adept and helps him to reach the Abyss safely.

      This number also have the symbolism of the union of the Microcosmos and the Macrocosmos, as the sum of the 5 and the 6, being the 5 related to the Pentagram and the 6 related to the Hexagram. So, 11 joins the meanings of both the correlations and means the All. ”

      Here is what I deciphered:
      1. Tree of Life is the Sacred Geometry. Also known as the Secret Knowledge.
      2. Daath is the phenomenon known as the “Black Night of the Soul”. This is also known the enlightened state of mind.
      3. The Great Work. In order to understand it you will need to go higher than the enlightened state of mind which gives way to psychic abilities and out of body experiences. You will need to understand how to cleanse your Pineal Gland and open your third eye. The third eye is represented correctly in Thelema.
      4. Pentagram – is often represented in many occult symbolism. Hexagram on the other hand is represented in Buddhism texts as being Holy and in religious texts, the light of God. Both the Pentagram and the Hexagram are the created through Sacred Geometry. The union of these two gives rise to the understanding of the Abyss or Sacred Knowledge.

      Crowley described himself as, “I am number 11”.

      if you understand the correlation between number 11 and the Abyss. You will become one with all.

  6. Here is the qualititaive difference between a thelemite and a Christian (or whatever it is I am – I say ‘aChristian’):

    (a) Thelemites – for all their freedom – will ban/censor me from their sites (even though they came here first and made a comment about the legitmacy of their belief system)

    (b) I won’t ban them back because I believe in ‘freedom of speech’ and the power of dialogue to help us understand one another or expose our lies (including my own).

    Why would I even so much as think of joining a religion that promises freedom and cannot deliver on it.

    ‘Whom the son sets free…is free indeed’ (and I am)

  7. yes! haha! i am back and now i’ve converted to THELEMANICAL!

    you see Jason, I am soooo incredibly deep. he spends all day thinking whether or not God is so powerful he can make a rock so big he can’t lift it. he also ponders things like “the second statement is true. the first statement is false.” wow.. i’m overwhelmed by how smart i feel!

    if you only understood that the aeonic theory and what it means to be in the Aeon of Horus then you’d get it… cause then you’d be Egyptian and driving a shitty early 90’s Chevy. then you’d get that i’m a god but you aren’t.

    love is the law, love and will.

    (p.s. if you wanna comment on my blog, go ahead, but i’ll delete it because i believe in love is the law, love and MY will).

  8. I read your comments, too, you know! The fact that you are seeking to ‘attack’ the site blatantly and in your own words, makes me want to publish your comments all the more! …Not! Love is the law, love under will.

    BTW Thanks for promoting my blog and Thelema in at least two of your blog posts – much appreciated!

  9. Also, societyvs – My blog gets way more traffic than yours and you don’t have to deal with the sheer amount of comments that I get. No offense.

    Also if you just go on my site to ‘attack’ it as Luke/Toothface plainly stated he was doing, dont expect me to respect your posting in the least. I see no reason to let people empty their verbal diarrhea on my proverbial floor. You too, Jason/societyvs. Love is the law, love under will.

  10. No prob CID – I think it would help people to read some of that stuff and to learn about Thelema – since the idea was absolutely foreign to me until about 2 weeks ago. It’s good to learn new ways of thinking and where those ideologies spring from.

    “I read your comments, too, you know! The fact that you are seeking to ‘attack’ the site blatantly and in your own words, makes me want to publish your comments all the more! …Not!” (CID)

    What you see as attack – I see as honest critique…I asked many questions that went unanswered (which you label as ‘attacks’ – but were in fact questions and only one post was done a bit sarcastically). However, none of that was allowed to ‘air’ anyways so we won’t worry about ‘what might have been’ – we’ll live with ‘what is’.

    Take care bud!

  11. “BTW Luke I can tell when someone is coming from the same IP FYI” (CID)

    Busted Luke! Lol

    “Also, societyvs – My blog gets way more traffic than yours and you don’t have to deal with the sheer amount of comments that I get. No offense.” (CID)

    True, no offense taken

    “I see no reason to let people empty their verbal diarrhea on my proverbial floor. You too, Jason/societyvs” (CID)

    I come in the spirit of dialogue and wonderment – and when questions go unanswered – I am not sure we could have a dialogue about the beliefs of Thelema. Fact is, you closed that door – not me – and you came to this blog seeking conversation (not vice versa). Just happens I actually do spend time digging into the issues at hand and that was avoided. So be it.

  12. Ben/CID,

    “Also if you just go on my site to ‘attack’ it as Luke/Toothface plainly stated he was doing, dont expect me to respect your posting in the least”

    i guess i was reacting to being called nonChristian. wanna hit my buttons it’s telling me i’m not Christian without backing up your statements. in seminary, we have to logically support our claims, you simply haven’t. instead you claim “well that isn’t the type of Christianity that I am speaking to” and then later “you’re simply not Christian.” about me and expect me to sit back and take it? no! i’m going to prove that 1. Christianity isn’t dead because you’re dealing with a strawman fallacy, 2. i’m a Christian and quite within the realm of orthodox within my tradition (notice the small o)and 3. you have no nuance and are making claims with no evidence and just cut and pasting Crowley-isms to make yourself sound smart and enlightened.

    your facade crumbles as soon as your hit with real criticism and you respond like a high schooler would… by moderating, deleting, and side stepping all direct questioning as you have done with both mine and Jason’s comments. i’d love to hear:

    -how you expect ppl to live in community,

    -how exactly Christianity is superceded and how this won’t turn into the awful tragedies played out through history by supersessionist Christians on innocent Jews,

    -how your view of Christianity came about and how you’re not argue’n from ignorance based on your “Morbid God of Christians” post which was SO off target it wasn’t even funny. in fact, it’s akin to other Christians view Jews as oppressed under the law and not taking joy in it.

    -what eactly the phrase “Love is the law, love under will” means to YOU not someone else. i’ve read all the sites you’ve posted and each commentator is as vague as the last.

    that’s what i’ve constantly questioned throughout and you’ve responded with Ad hominem attacks against my faith and stance within my Christian tradition of United Church of Christ and then furthering the attack you commit Poisoning the well after all this on your site then from there on out.

    i’d love to see you respond to these directly as well as to the claim that you’re not in high school. feel free! until then, i’m label’n Thelema a cut-and-paste job on world religions and of no relevance. that then would make you a poor evangelist for this thought system. i’m normally able to get along with everyone and give them the benefit of the doubt.. but you push my buttons for some reason… i dunno… anywho… love to hear ya “CID.” until then, peace!

  13. 93

    Im mildly confused by all this . AS a Thelemite i dont follow or worship Crowley (to me they are Crowelites and even Crowley him mself would have though them fools and morons) , Thelema is knowing and doing your own will .i.e Lifes yours deal with , understand there are some accepted principles that are universal , there will be fights and moments to not fight simply . However the simple answer is what ever floats your boat and dsont restrict you aor others deliberately and supresse them is fine. Aeon or non aeon, theres knowledge that’s useful to making yourself a better individual more compassionate, more intellegent more lethtal etc But thats for you to decide .

    Think some thelemites forget that the concepts of Liber Oz once accepted MUST be applied to every other person you meet and come into contact with . And Do What thou whilt shall be the whole of the law is not a licence to forget about others will.

    93 93/93

  14. “Thelema is knowing and doing your own will .i.e Lifes yours deal with , understand there are some accepted principles that are universal , there will be fights and moments to not fight simply.” (Ozymandus)

    Agreed – but I have that same depth in the Christian faith which is outside the thelema experience…which is why I debated this with CID – because it seems to me many of the claims being made about Thelema can be found outside the system of thelema.

    “However the simple answer is what ever floats your boat and dsont restrict you aor others deliberately and supresse them is fine” (Ozymandas)

    Finally! I said this exact same thing in my discussions with CID and what told ‘this is not thelema’. Do what thou wilt in modern english is Do what you will. Which if followed to it’s obvious conclusion – do what ‘YOU’ want.

    “theres knowledge that’s useful to making yourself a better individual more compassionate, more intellegent more lethtal etc But thats for you to decide” (Ozymandas)

    See you have me following you with compassion and intelligence, but lethal?

    I wonder this about thelema – does it believe that someone’s true will pathway could end like that of Adolf Hitler’s or a Ted Bundy?

    I mean, if we look into the idea of ‘do what THOU wilt’ – it contains ‘thou’ in the sentence – which kind of means the person doing the doing has some kind of ‘god’ tag on them – maybe in the sense they can choose to do practically anything. Does thelema hold to a view like this at all?

    • The thou is making reference to another person (so i understand it ) in the 2nd person so its not the speaker who’s saying its me but your teh spoken too, You asking them to person and understand and perform their will . AS far as im aware it has no direct linguistic reference to meaning another name for divinity.

      And yes each and every person is a God , in that they affect and casue and make manifest their own destiny (you have to know it first ).

      Hitler … well he made his will apparent and performed it but suppressed so many others in the process then no. Im not sure if your familiar with Liber Oz
      http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib77.html . But as i said if you accept that you have these rights stated here ., EVERY single of person in the world also has them , in the book of the Law the greatest sin is restriction so when you greet them as in Do what thou wilt , you asking some one to perform their will and hoping. Also while you have these rights you must beware of the consequences !

      As the lethal part we’ll you can be a lethal cook and make wicked foods , but to understand all parts of yourself will included what we deem as good and evil . What do these terms mean to use , is it ever right to perform a “evil” action to ensure a greater good (and is good ever right.

      Its not a simplistic philosophy/religion , people come into conflict , and should as we say life is change and change is stability

      93 93/93.

      • Thanks for clearing up the ‘thou’ piece of that sentence – brought to rememberance that Crowley did speak in the third person sometimes – which could explain that sentence (in the 2nd person).

        “And yes each and every person is a God , in that they affect and casue and make manifest their own destiny (you have to know it first).” (Ozy)

        Yeah, but that’s really just being a human being – complete with choices of consequences and reward…I am not sure how that makes one a God. But then again, the idea of God has become so watered down in modern society it all makes sense.

        “What do these terms mean to use , is it ever right to perform a “evil” action to ensure a greater good (and is good ever right.” (Ozy)

        Now that’s a philosophical argument that I would like to get more into…evil and outcomes and good being right (all the time). I think in term of standards (or the ideal) but I am aware that we live in a very complex world where sometimes we need to transgress a good idea for the best outcome.

  15. Societyvs,

    ” it seems to me many of the claims being made about Thelema can be found outside the system of thelema.”

    Yea, that’s the point. Almost every single post of the blog draws parallels between Thelema and ideas in Christianity. Did you miss that?

    “Do what thou wilt in modern english is Do what you will. Which if followed to it’s obvious conclusion – do what ‘YOU’ want.”

    Changing the meaning to something is not ‘following it to its obvious conclusion.’ The fact that it is written over and over that do what thou wilt does not mean do what you want doesnt appease you, does it? “The formula of this law is: Do what thou wilt. Its moral aspect is simple enough in theory. Do what thou wilt does not mean Do as you please, although it implies this degree of emancipation, that it is no longer possible to say à priori that a given action is “wrong.” Each man has the right—and an absolute right—to accomplish his True Will.” Theres the one half of freedom and the other half of absolute responsibility. Thelemites engage in disciplining practices like being aware of unconscious actions, speech, and thoughts… basic meditation practices, ritual practices and more. The diversity of practices employed by Thelemites is relatively eclectic but a short glance can show you that Do what thou wilt implies a bit more than ‘Live and let live.’

    I find your switch to pretending to be respectful humorous btw, and as you can see showed this blog to some people – hope you dont mind! 😉

    Love is the law, love under will.

    • The whole formula is Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law . Love is the law love under will.

      A agree with eclectic approach because as we know the manifestation of ones will is an individual process. So where there are tried and tested practices to help you develop self , when and if more are discovered thee are passed into teh community , with the intent of helping everyone (if it is their will to ) to develop.

      Thelema if nothing is about development and helping everyone have the opportunity and knowledge to do so , but never to beat them over the head with it or claim a superiority if others do not call themselves Thelemites

  16. “The diversity of practices employed by Thelemites is relatively eclectic but a short glance can show you that Do what thou wilt implies a bit more than ‘Live and let live.’” (CID)

    Thanks for the paragraph of explanation – on the law ‘do what thou wilt’ since it was not really explained to me at any point prior to this in any real depth. It’s good to know there are practices of discipline and morality…which one sentence did not fully explain – that lone sentence being ‘do what thou wilt’ (the explanation helps define it).

    What is your defintion of ‘true will’? The stuff I read sounds like ‘destiny of fulfillment of one’s fate’…is this accurate?

    “I find your switch to pretending to be respectful humorous btw, and as you can see showed this blog to some people – hope you dont mind!” (CID)

    I don’t care – I posted the blog post so I can hear the perspectives of people in the movement of thelema…I made no bones about the fact I don’t have much background on what the belief system is…and I asked many questions.

    As for the switch to being respectful – I guess if that’s how you want to label all this conversation then okay. I haven’t said anything any different here than I said on your blog – some sarcasm, many questions, and honest thought provoking discussion about the thelema belief system (none of which was posted).

    What you see as disrespectful is really a matter of one’s view on the conversations at hand…writing in and of itself doesn’t allow for us to read face expressions or in what tone any of this was written. For me, I like to get engaged on a subject and hammer out until I see many aspects of it…it’s just the way I learn. I stated what I have learned from what I read – then questioned it. For some reason that seems to have been offensive (or something of the sort).

    But you need to remember CID that when your visiting Christian blogs and espousing many of the things your saying – like Christianity is dead – it will provoke those discussions…and I am not sure why that has taken you aback?

  17. So little control over my emotions? Nice sidestep of all the questions!! Artfully done! Now seriously, what’s the deal with you and your psuedo-satanic hodge-podge belief system?

  18. Yes, so little control over your emotions, Luke, as your frothing-at-the-mouth reply proves to anyone and their mother. Have a great day stewing in your own lack of ability to guide your own emotions. Love is the law, love under will.

  19. Luke – he seems to have you in a corner there.

    Good thing as humans we are emotional beings – I would almost think that was a ‘slam’ of some sort.

    Don’t worry Luke – the people that know you – know what you are like and we still respect you.

  20. corner? no corner. only questions questions and more questions. like i’ve stated about this dude before, he’s all about side-stepping and personal attacks. “my site gets way more traffic than yours” is showing how better he is than you Jay. the assertion that i can’t control my emotions is also an attack instead of answering any of the concerns. you wanna try to label me, i’ll give evidence and logical proof that counters it. i’m rational, in most cases, but blatant character attacks can only be tolerated for so long.

    then i look at other followers of Thelema and see a much more reasoned approach. Ozymandus answered a lot of questions in two simple paragraphs as well as his outstanding name choice!! fantastic poem btw. any who… my questions about CID/Ben still stand as well as my concern for Ben’s name choice and supersessionist attitude. seems that every religion has it’s proselytizers and Ben is one of them.

    • 93

      I like this man 😉 (And it is really just OSymandus (it was from the poem of sorts but my dyslexia caused it to become mine all mine ha ha … anyway )

      societyvs:
      Re teh good and evil part , our theological aspect (EGC Ecclesia_Gnostica_Catholica
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesia_Gnostica_Catholica) , does have a greed in which is stated save us fmro Evil and from Good , again my own take on this is frmo falling to a dualism that can restrict you from performing your own will and teh right action to the detriment of the correct action at the time .
      Deus est Hommo as also a little motto of the EGC hence where we believe our “divinity” (humankind i stress here not gender). WE are magi , we do perform what would be deemed magick however i hope we bring a cross and retain the concepts of a universal brother(sister)hood and never fall to a dogma that states we are the one true path .(which is nonsense, though we maybe more stylish witter and sexier ;).
      Im not sure where you guys are located but if you want any more question’s answered in a more direct fashion any local body of teh OTO would be more then willing to talk you through Thelema, its history’s and concepts oft over a beverage of your choice 😉
      If you guys are in teh US for instance http://oto-usa.org/

      93 93/93

      • Sorry about this comment not getting through sooner – the links in it had it blocked for some reason.

        Anywho, thanks for the offer Ozy – maybe one day I will take a longer gander at Thelema…sounds interesting enough and everyone attached to it seems to be quite ‘okay’ (and even fairly moral).

  21. “he’s all about side-stepping and personal attacks. “my site gets way more traffic than yours” is showing how better he is than you Jay” (Luke)

    If Jesus taught me one thing – it’s that CID is better than me. That way I don’t have to worry about it.

    Luke I was just kidding around and I basically agree with you – there was a lot of side-stepping going on – and many questions left unanswered…but them’s the breaks I guess. As long as we know what we believe and why – CID can believe almost anything he so much as wants to – doesn’t really mean much (namely if it can’t be backed nor questioned for intengrity).

    I also said there is nothing wrong with being somewhat emotional since we are emotional – I’d be lying if I said I was somewhat passionate about my beliefs. I don’t see anything wrong with loving what you believe (as long as it makes sense and works).

    I think we need to cut CID some slack on some of this.

  22. CID

    Brilliant showing of your passive aggressive nature. Mind you, you still havnt answered his questions. Any chance you might or are you just going to keep regurgitating that trite line. “Love is the law, Love under will”?
    God I know hearing that enough would make me want to put you under something and sure as shit it aint love. 🙂

  23. Jay, truth hurts and John speaks it. i would LOVE to cut CID some slack but any time i do, i’m attacked. “progressive/liberal Christians can make the bible say anything they want.” which i find really funny because there’s nothing about an aeon of Horus anywhere in the NT. but we’ll just act like it does. it’s simply irresponsible.

  24. societyvs : Thanks and no worries we’re not here crush anyone , most peoples of all teh religions know there are links and similarities many paths one goal as the Buddhists like to say . As in Liber XXX (Liber libra say wisely says :

    In true religion there is no sect, therefore take heed that thou blaspheme not the name by which another knoweth his God; for if thou do this thing in Jupiter thou wilt blaspheme יהוה and in Osiris יהשוה. Ask and ye shall have! Seek, and ye shall find! Knock, and it shall be opened unto you!

    May your god go with
    Agape
    93 93/93

  25. 93.
    I don’t agree with the Christianity is dead, aspect at all. In fact one thing Thelema claims is to restore Christianity. Thelema is not really about metaphysical beliefs, you can hold any such beliefs you like about natural substances, if there is a heaven, reincarnation etc, or you can be a materialist atheist, or anything else for that matter. Thelema is the replacement of the nation that moral behaviour is grounded in these metaphysical claims. Thelema provide an explanation of proper conduct that does not require an external policeman, like God, the King, the Priests, or a set of dogmas to obey. Thelema says we are all composed of the natural forces (Which in the poetry of the book of the law are NUIT and Hadit, That is matter and motion or World and Self, in the gnostic mass these include the sun, moon, saints of the past, birth, death, etc, you can include or remove from that list the natural and supernatural forces you believe in. In Thelema, you are the product of those forces, and as such they have determined what you are and set you in motion, and it’s up to you to discover what the limits of your orbit are and to stay within them. Children in Thelema are taught to be brave, confident, focused and self disciplined, to experience every type of situation and to objectively look at how it effected them and their life, to understand the consequences of different actions and behaviours, from direct personal experience, not from authority or dogma, then to have the discipline to stop those than are harmful and keep up those that are beneficial, each for oneself. That is what Do What Thou Wilt, is all about. The aspects of Christianity than Thelema opposes are the notion of original sin, in so far as it teaches that the flesh is evil and not to trust your own judgement as it is tainted with worldly sin, and the notion of vicarious atonement, that the death of Jesus will absolve you without any effort of your part, and finally the nation of you have to die and be reborn, that is you have to submit your own “sinful WILL” to the obey the priest and the dogmas of authority rather than personal experience. in place of these Thelema teaches, we are all holy and sinless as we are but we must like children learn to grow and experience the world in order to understand and achieve our spiritual potential. “the word of sin is restriction” that is any second hand moral dogmas or oppression than prevents the individual from acting in away to acquire first hand knowledge by experience is sinful, because it restricts or reduces the individuals spiritual growth towards it’s potential. in Thelema Jesus can be an example of a child of God which UCC motto says we are all children of God, who grown up to discover his true spiritual potential. We can best follow Jesus, not by emulating his life exactly, but by growing to our own spiritual potential and “union with God” and working to do our part to create the kingdom of heaven on earth. Jesus can also be seen as solar figure, which fits into Hermetic science and Crowley who was not convinced Jesus was a real man, was strongly influenced by this solar-christ view. In any effect, Thelema is not the death of Christianity, but rather a project a part of which is to restore the Spiritual power of Christianity, to redeem religion from necessary belief in doctrines which have been discounted by science and tend to insult the heart and mind of modern men.

  26. “Thelema is not the death of Christianity, but rather a project a part of which is to restore the Spiritual power of Christianity, to redeem religion from necessary belief in doctrines which have been discounted by science and tend to insult the heart and mind of modern men” (Apocryphon)

    Thelema is a tad more humanistic than Christianity, not always a bad thing, but sometimes a step too far is exactly that – a step too far in the pursuit of ‘right and wrong’. I don’t really need to know how bad a stove can burn me to know it burns. So some limits are normal – this isn’t exactly the ‘feel’ I get from reading Thelema documents.

    With Thelema it seems more about the right to be ‘burnt’ in the stove analogy in the search for what the stove does (ie: the truth and integrity of the stove). But again, not all Thelema is like that – but some of it is.

    Also, some of the aspects of Christianity you disagree with I do as well (ie: original sin and atonement) – yet I didn’t need Thelema to arrive at those conclusions – just an analysis of the scriptural texts themselves. In some ways, Christianity doesn’t actually need the help of Thelema to arrive at some pretty obvious conclusions.

    As for the ‘solar Christ’ thing – thats just pure myth. I think Jesus was pretty clearly a human being and that’s about the extent of that. Unless there has been other solar beings we don’t know about and who have refused to make themselves known in the past? Otherwise it’s barking up the tree of insanity.

    I guess my biggest qualm is with Crowley himself – and his lifestyle during his construction of this idea…a tad on the hedonistic side. Now I can’t fully support that type of lifestyle, it smacks of plain dis-integrity on my part and on the part of a meaningful co-existence for men and women in my community/society.

  27. The “Solar-christ” theory I meant was the notion that no actual human Jesus existed but rather the gospel stories are reconstruction of solar myths, for example Solar Jesus and the 12 zodiac disciples. The notion of the sun’s death and re-birth that corresponds to the seasons, etc.

    As for the necessity of Thelema as a specific religion like EGC and OTO, I agree it’s not really necessary since the reforms of religion happen as in a sense part of the zeitgeist, that is it’s just part of the course of time. Judaism was going to reform with or without Christianity, and reform Judaism is still a major world religion. It is debatable how much influence Christianity existing on the world stage has influenced other religions.

    As for the Humanism in Thelema, I don’t think that is quite right. Humanism places the ideal of humans in general, the most basic human qualities as the ideal. Thelema on the other hand exhaults the superior qualities of some individuals over the lesser achievements and qualities of other humans, and Thelema sees the most basic traits of humans as inadequate in themselves to be developed and focused to a higher individual spiritual ideal. If anything Humanism in both it’s secular and it’s religious sense are actually the degenerated progression of Christian doctrines over time. Where Protestantism attacked the traditional doctrines and authority of the church over time this same process begins to question more and more of Christian doctrine and metaphysics, in light of a stricter adherence to the ethical ideals. This leads to secular Humanism, that idealises the mere human, making all men equal before the cross, Cross becomes nature, and then the leftist notion that this “natural equality” should be the government enforced basis of political law. Then we have the strive for individual advancement to be worthy of salvation, is replaced by an entitlement to salvation, which becomes a secular entitlement mentality, and forms a social-political movement, where the government is designated as the force that can bestow all the dreams we feel entitled to. There is a paradox of guilt and entitlement which is the inheritance of Christian ethos.

    Thelema works to reverse this trend, to restore spiritual ideals, to resolve the sense of both guilt and entitlement to gifts from above. Instead it places integrates the individual as part of the forces of nature, We are all a union of flesh and God, acting as a force of nature to progress the world. Rather than fallen creatures in need of divine aid, reflected in the secular reliance on Government to do what the individual should achieve by force of their own Will.

    • 93
      I have to take issue regarding the Thelema is not a Humanism and that it encourages individuals over others . As the basic tenant is every man and every woman is a star (deus est hommo ) that simply isnt the case . The meaning of Thelema is will or to do will . From the greek it is every persons right to discover and perform this (in much the same sense as the gnostic , maybe that why we have a Gnostic church ;)). The most basic of human traits are not inadequite , but are encouraged to be refined (exceed , exceed , exceed , in the name of Nuit)

      The Kristos or Christ within humanity (referring to the solar phallic deities ) refferes again to the spark of divinity in all humanity so as Jesus awoke it , as well as siddhartha , Krishna , Mithras etc so now with Thelema every person has the chance to awaken theirs .

      SocietyVs , may i refer you to Liber Oz regarding the rights of man , also while the right is there so is the right to take the consequences of these actions, and all Thelemites who accept Liber Oz also accept they apply to every other human being on the planet.
      (ps i posted as osymandus before ;))
      93 93/93

  28. Thanks Laurence and Apocryphon, I will take some re-reads of Liber Oz when I get a chance. Truth is, outside all the weird names you both use for stuff, we’re actually not that far off in our individual quests for human integrity and spirituality.

  29. SocietyV’s. Your not that far wrong i suspect 😉 at the end of Liber Librae it says .
    http://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/lib30.htm
    “21. In the true religion there is no sect, therefore take heed that thou blaspheme not the name by which another knoweth his God; for if thou do this thing in Jupiter thou wilt blaspheme HB:Heh HB:Vau HB:Heh HB:Yod and in Osiris HB:Heh HB:Vau HB:Shin HB:Heh HB:Yod . Ask and ye shall have! Seek, and ye shall find! Knock, and it shall be opened unto you!”

    And thats from the Golden Dawn (mind you their Christian based magicains :D)

    • I must admit I don’t understand the need for thelema – or Crowley’s ideas…thus the post some years back. I see us living in the 21st century – no new aeon of anything – except the same old same old – human greed and pride.

  30. I am an atheist that likes thelema philosophy and let me say why thelema must not die. thelema is about the will of humanity, but not in a state of identity and ego, it goes beyond that. what we see does not represent the will of humanity, but individual will, which implies selfishessness while true will is about selflessness.

    Your identity is as real as batman is, and god himself. it’s just an idea conceived by the human perspective.

    Knowledge from Da’ath is about the aniquilation of the self, so you can understand what human perspective can’t conceived. That’s why there are gods, so we can conceive the gaps of incomprehensive sciences, which can seem absurd for the human mind.

    That’s why “magick” can drive a man to madness. Thelemites that are too deep in the idea as it looks like are just preventing themselves from harm, while true thelema is a two edge sword…

    How can you conceive the suicide of ego to unify yourself with the black seas of the universe?

    I will not quote Crowley in this, but Lovecraft, who I prefer for this idea:

    “The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.”

    Thelema may not be dead, because it were never alive in the beginning. But, while Pan is alive there is still hope.

    • I just read your whole comment godless and I have to admit – not a lick of that makes sense to any basic comprehension that the readers here would have. It’s too coded in mystery language and terms so as to make it useless (just being honest).

      So far everyone that explains Crowley’s teachings seems to have their own language – Thelema-ism’s. For the average person that knows nothing of the religion – it sounds like it might make sense but doesn’t – because even people in Thelema cannot properly interpret the stuff they read for the average listener.

      The problem: That makes the Thelemite sound ‘smart’ when in fact they could be talking pure nonsense. It also means they have some ‘secret knowledge’ that only they and other insiders are privy too – and I have to say – I don’t like that game and where it leads.

      So for me, I am right, Thelema is dead…because how can the living understand something that even the insiders can’t explain – dead and useless – same thing in some senses.

      • I’m not offended

        I can’t sound reasonable when I, myself, can’t understand the overall. The Abyss could be the “noise” in regular communication as it is now between you and I and the other thelemites. Babalon is not the same in each of us, she is what we see through refletive window. We see ourselves in the world.

        What is real for a fish under the sea may not correspond to our on reality, and as it seems, reality distinguishes itself among us fellow humans.

        What is the number 11 for some will not be for you, even though they explain to you the meaning.

        About the death of Thelema. Thelema, for me, is the will of mankind. Our overture that never was. We are not free…

        I’ll give you an example using one of your discussions here. There is a guy in these comments that said he censored you in his own website (or something like that) because he believes he’s free (Love and MY WILL), because he chose to censor you. Nah… he did because otherwise you could harm his ego. He is afraid so he’s not free, he’s limited his own emotions, and for something so little… He should let you speak in his website, if you don’t let others be free, how can yourself be free? The jailkeeper is as locked as the prisoner, since he has something to keep watching and can not be free by himself.

        Some thelemites don’t know, but passion is connected to fear, insecurity etc, because it comes from the illusion of self. While love has no face it has nothing to fear, nothing to lose. It is about us being united under our true overture… whatever that is…

        So how can Thelema (True Will) be dead if it never were before? Crowley just showed us something we don’t have, but we sure can get someday.

        And I’m sorry for my bad english. It isn’t my primary language. I’m from Brazil.

  31. “if you understand the correlation between number 11 and the Abyss. You will become one with all.” (Paul)

    Well here’s the problem Paul:

    (a) Even your deciphering of what number 11, and other symbols of Crowley, mean make it almost useless to understand or to use – unless you have some higher enlightened logic that only the inner circle knows (wink wink).

    (b) It’s all an ‘inside game’ – the whole idea of secret knowledge or secret societies – having an inside understanding others don’t. The issue is – if this is such a great system why isn’t it just wide open and easy for everyone to understand? Why does it need mystery or coded language – making this as trivial as understanding revelations or Nostradamus.

    If you ask me, Crowley wanted a system for his own that was unique, something to offer the planet to say he found or did something special. I don’t find Thelema all that special to be honest. He can be number 11 all he wants but the time of the brainwash is over, information age yo!

    • Usually a creed has two ways, the way of the slave and the way of the master. Secrecy is a meant to be keep the status quo between masters and slaves. Christians will always respond to the seven deadly sins in a way they will let themselves be overcome by the few, while in the secret christianity, or the enochian misticism, masters will know that overcome the sins is not about being a servent, but just being a better person.

      it’s just an example. it follows in islamic and jewish beliefs. Mormonism , for example, was made up for the same reason, but in secrecy it’s masters do masonic rituals.

      and it will be like that while we keep lost in dicotomies like “masters & slaves”.

  32. “I can’t sound reasonable when I, myself, can’t understand the overall.” (godless)

    Regardless, thanks for the clarification on the subject headings and the example about ‘freedom’ (something I also believe).

    Truth is, will I not arrive at the same conclusions you do – without the beliefs of Thelema by just being honest with myself? Probably.

    • Yes.

      But the true will (thelema) goes beyond the will of character. I could tell you that myself, my identity, is just an avatar of false ambitions, but when I’m put in a great scheme, a synergistic web that works with one intention, myself, my ego would go against this hypothetical overture.

      that’s why I mocked the other guy. It’s easy to justify the flaws of the ego by saying “this is my will!” – sure it is…

      like the willing for consumerism could be justified by your ambition to buy a lot of shit you don’t need.

  33. “Usually a creed has two ways, the way of the slave and the way of the master.” (godless)

    Sounds like Kirk Cameron – hahaha.

    Truth is, whether it’s Christianity, Mormonism, Judaism, or Thelema – I have no love for secret rituals and the what not – I seek to expose them at all times (because the followers have the right to know what’s going on in the faith they are dedicating themselves to).

    I am a pseudo-Christian of sorts – but I believe in many of the tenets of Jesus’ teachings (as guidelines to build upon) – namely this one:

    “nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.” (Matt 5:15)

    That which is hidden shouldn’t be.

    • Hehehe, “ouch” on the Kirk cameron comparison, and, btw, Kirk must know pretty well about that somehow, since he’s like a master of the herd himself.

      The dichotomy between master and slave is famous because of Aristotle if I quite remember.

      and I also dislike control through secrecy. as I told you before, if you control someone, you are attached to the condition of a master, which you’d see yourself oblige to maintain so you couldn’t lose it.
      what is a master without a slave?

      and, in an overall, I rather see my fellow kin as free as myself.

      and if you like christianity, try to look out about it’s secrets. for example, the “fact” that Jesus has a female side named Sophia; Lilith, the first mate of Adam; the enochian rites of the pentagram and such.

      and, as an advice, don’t abstract the mythos of any sord as real. that’s the first mistake a person can do. I didn’t mention batman for nothing. Batman isn’t real, Gotham city either, but you can find in it’s mythos things about our own society, about ourselves as people, as individuals.

      it’s a good way to connect with yourself.

      I, myself, like to see religion as art for those who can’t make art, but in truth, in our capitalism, it’s a tool to make money, even Thelema is.

  34. “I, myself, like to see religion as art for those who can’t make art…” (godless)

    Ooooh, I like that – and I agree.

    “and if you like christianity, try to look out about it’s secrets. for example, the “fact” that Jesus has a female side named Sophia; Lilith, the first mate of Adam; the enochian rites of the pentagram and such” (godless)

    Lot of myth in there and I recognize that – but myth’s tell tales as well that can be useful.

    As for some of this stuff you mentioned:
    (a) Sophia is wisdom in Hebrew – there was no female side to Jesus per se – was he in touch with his emotions (if that’s what you mean)? Maybe.
    (b) Lilith, first mate of Adam, is mythical and made up – and was not used in the Judaic Tanakh – so for me – that holds no water or weight. Lilith also may be a interpretive leap read into the passages – maybe via Zohars.
    (c) Enochian rites – maybe used from Enoch 1 and 2 (both not included in the biblical texts but quoted in them)…not sure what to make of this – I bet the pentagram was read into the texts personally (or the texts used over the already existing ritual).

    • a) Yes, that’s right. emotion as wisdom is the meant to be selfless and connect to the human overture. Sophia is also Babalon, the queen which thelemites claim to protect, search, and that’s what I search myself, the archetype of The Woman. even some thelemites when they speak about the hermetic marriage, they don’t quite understand that this marriage is the union of both archetypes inside of them, not a soul mate (another person) for all eternity. It’s the balance needed.

      For me, while we let ourselves apart the female archetype more we lose from the male, dehumanizing what remains humane in us. We become something else, something, I believe, were not meant to be.

      b) Lilith can be found in Book of Enoch. The Constantine bible (the regular one) has only what needs to make a person a slave of the system. As I said before, in the path of the slave for Christianity, you learn guilty, how YOU ARE guilty and how to blame others for ephemeral sins. Lilith is another face of Babalon. One of the bests. She is the mother, lover and sister of the beast.

      c) The enochian ritual of the pentagram is the way to open yourself to the invisible world. You evoke the four angels and each one of them represents an element, or aspect. For example: Archangel Michael carries the sword, he holds the fire. It means reason. The binary split by the blade. It’s pretty cool. Even I (an atheist) use these interpretations to aid me in reality. Divide and Conquer is a reasonable logic to win over something to complex. That’s the sword of reason, the sword of fire, which burn lies.

  35. “But the true will (thelema) goes beyond the will of character. I could tell you that myself, my identity, is just an avatar of false ambitions, but when I’m put in a great scheme, a synergistic web that works with one intention, myself, my ego would go against this hypothetical overture.” (godless)

    That’s basic philosophy of the ego and our place in society – the me vs. community idea. I tend to think everyone is a bit of both – what they do effects 2 things: (a) themselves and (b) others (community).

    Being selfless is impossible, but being selfish is something we can mitigate when we consider our places in the bigger scheme of the world.

    Something I learned from Christian and Jewish teachings as well. Your move Crowley.

    • To be or not to be, that’s the question.

      A way I find “not to be” is suicide. Love, apart from passion, for me, is cold, black, deep and empty, as it should be. It comes from the agape of Christ’s passion, or a regular passion for a lover. It belongs in the deep of mysteries where no mundane contemplation is enough to comprehend. The singular silence in the void where our voices may join and become one immortal echo through history.

      We were born from darkness, and at the end, we go back to darkness. That is love. From a mother’s womb to the blackness of our eyelids.

  36. I’ve only stumbled upon this posting, but I just want to remark (without having read the entire thread), that the Oct 24th post by “Godless” to “SocietyVS” was just damn beautiful.

    I appreciate reading words that briefly capture a glimpse of the ineffable. Also… from what I briefly skimmed from the MULTITUDE of posts… you both seem to be forging wisdom and words of wisdom from a plurality of traditions. That syncretism in Thelema and that syncretism in Christian history has always been a strength the individuals and the words they share to other individuals.

    Kind thanks for sharing words that spread that enthusiasm for those traditions, enthusiasm for poetic wisdom, and that love that forms bonds and builds bridges from person to person.

    Many thanks,
    – K.

  37. Going through old posts and found this thread… wow. What a mess. We should have known we were in the presence of enlightened beings when they started with a random number, ended with a nonsensical phrase and stated they had more blog visits than we did… Good times…

    • 93
      How can the number be random if its attributed a meaning (Romans 3:10 seems rather random to me ;-)) ? No one presumed any enlightenment nor superiority (we’re not Christians you know :P) , nonsense comes from lack of knowledge , and as the rest mha arbitrary .
      93 93/93 😉

      • I think that’s the rub. The “attributed meaning.” Nonsense comes from ‘no-sense.’ As in “this makes no sense.” Try as I might, it’s lots of numbers and spiritual-ish sounding stuff. But if it works for you, GREAT! Blessings to you! Do no harm, rock and roll and love your neighbor.

      • That’s merely your own lack of understanding of the subject , it will not invalidate the subject nor make it invalid by your lack of individual understanding . This is at Luke btw 😉 . Mathmatics for instance are symbols attributed meaning with a purposse , as are letters themselves .No sense would apply to random generation of symbols of literaly no reason , this isnt the case .

      • Oh I’ve read and listened and it makes no sense to this dude, whose studied systematic theology and even understand other unsystematic theologies. I’m an existentialist and universalist. So the question of my understanding or openness isn’t a question. The question is the quality of the message and messengers of this theology.

        I can look at math and understand the logic behind it. I can get that even if I don’t get the subtle nuances of the higher concepts. Here, I don’t even get the basics. It’s all sound and fury signifying nothing.

        BTW, I love osymandus both in both senses of the term… Watchmen is one of the greatest graphic novels of all time. And the original poem, that’s just epic.

  38. Really… All the information you are claiming not to get or not to be available, is all easily accessed in a number of texts or a quick search online. One would think that, if a blogger was going to post a blog on any system, proclaiming its death to the masses… they’d have taken the time to do the necessary research into the system to answer their own questions instead of spouting off nonsense and poorly educated opinions on the nature and state of a specific belief.

  39. I stopped reading at “I am 34 and this is the first I am hearing of this idea of Thelema.” You admittedly know very little about the nuance, history and context of the topic you profess to have figured out. Therefore, your argument is invalid.

  40. I agree with you 100% or people using jargon. They are using half-conceived jargon that they mix up from different schools of thought and sects, much of it they made up or misunderstood from their personal eclectic studies.

    It’s not a secret jargon, it’s basically nonsense. It becomes a “secret understanding” only because people agree to pretend they understand each other, in the name of “equality” and “Tolerance” and that we must respect everyone’s “Personal interpretations” and their “Own reality”. (These relativism and fear of argument is hippie bullshit, it’s cowardice that has nothing to do with true Thelema).

    Thelema is basically an attempt to answer Nietzsche and Secularism in general. An attempt to accept the “God is dead” while at the same time infusing the natural world with spiritual feelings and meaning.

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