“DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS” (Matt 7:23)
Or ‘Get away from me, you who participate in evil actions/plans’. (like the Psalms)
I contend one simple thing – this is what Jesus taught…this idea of practicing a ‘good way’ or a ‘wicked way’ of living (based on the Judaic idea of there being 2 paths to follow). I don’t think Jesus had much time for the practice of evil acts – or acts he deemed evil as compared with the teachings of the Torah. A good example would be his ideas on adultery, murder, and forgiveness.
This example is wrong (my mistake) – One example would be selling offerings…putting a price on animals for sacrifice (kind of like selling spirituality in some regards). (Didn’t want to remove it…I want to maintain some integrity in what was first written).
I agree with this idea – life is about standards – the development of a paradigm that the world can be seen through and imaged. I believe some actions do carry a right and wrong aspect to them…in that some actions bring about really nice things and some bring about really horrible things…in their consequences. I think humanity is aware of this – those who aren’t…psychologists have started calling them ‘psychopaths’ (or sociopaths). I think the bible is great guide for such introspection.
And this is where the gospel message shines…it allows me to have a standard of which I will ‘approve’ or ‘reject’ based on the way it hurts others or myself (ie: treat people in that manner you want to be treated…this is the law in summation). I get to have a standard in a world without one many times…I will live according to a plan of action (in my personal treatment of others and vice versa).
This idea seems to be the core reason Christians are not running to practice ‘lawlessness’ (or staying out of trouble)…whether this in plans or schemes or in simple invitations to do something questionable to their personal ethics. We are given that right to say ‘no’ or ‘get lost’ in such situations. It’s good to have choice based on some ‘rule of thumb’.
So why this point exactly? Because what seems harsh in the teachings usually isn’t…and that’s not a matter of perspective but reading more than just one line in a book.
Loosing My Religion 
Quote: I don’t think Jesus had much time for the practice of evil acts – or acts he deemed evil as compared with the teachings of the Torah. One example would be selling offerings…putting a price on animals for sacrifice (kind of like selling spirituality in some regards).
A quick question: What is your basis for making this claim that Torah does not allow for the selling of offerings?
An unrelated comment: In some other post you commented about the dating of Tanakh, I don’t remember where it was now and I’m not seeing it with a quick glance, but….your quote from Wikipedia concerned when the canon was compiled which modern scholars say was finalized sometime between 200 BCE to 200 CE. You and your brother then continued the conversation as if these were the years in which the books of Tanakh were actually written.
There has been much research done on this topic, it’s not so simple a discussion as would seem when copying and pasting from Wikipedia. Some say the earliest books were written during the time of David and Solomon around the 10th century BCE, while later books were written during the time of the Northern Kingdom, King Josiah, right on up the the 6th century BCE. Some say a redactor took bits of pieces of things already written and put them together around 500-400 BCE. The Greek Translation of Torah is traditionally dated around 300-200 BCE, so obviously Torah was already written down prior to that date.
I know there are those within certain Christian circles who claim the rabbis changed our texts at a later date to deliberately remove those things that would have proven Jesus was legit, but there is no basis for such an accusation and in fact the Dead Sea Scrolls show it to be false.
The standard is…perfection. (see the Sermon on the Mount)
I don’t see anyone practicing it. No one even comes close.
“A quick question: What is your basis for making this claim that Torah does not allow for the selling of offerings?” (Yael)
My point on that piece was that offerings were being sold (allowed or not) and the NT passages seem to be pointing to the idea the poorer in society likely could not afford such ideas (thus the turning of the tables and Jesus’ comment afterwards). So I think there is come credibility that this was not a good practice for it’s time (or even in this time)…only based on the idea of equality of one’s worship to God (poor and rich alike should be able to approach this entity as partners in some sense).
But if the practice did exist at one point as a type of ‘trade’ of some sort it may make sense – if everyone had their each individual livelihood and could bring such things as they grew or raised on their personal land. I think by the time we get to Jerusalem being a Roman enclave (a city within an empire) – we do reach a point where that system does have serious question marks.
The history of Israel is one from Exodus, to Canaan, to judges, to kings, to a pretty dominant empire for that region (under David and Solomon), to wars with other nations in which Israel did lose the land – either through being ruled over or via exile. By the time they came back and were building again, we have the Greeks and then the Roman occupations. I am not totally sure stability was for producing one’s own sacrifice was ensured for every single family that wished to do so. In some cases, they may have scraped together only a few denarii to get those sacrifices under the Roman money system. I think there are some complications in there somewhere.
Is such a critique on people paying for sacrifice in that turmoil really such a bad critique?
“In some other post you commented about the dating of Tanakh…” (Yael)
I should be read very carefully – I did not mention the Tanakh. I am well aware the history of Torah has existed since the 10th century – possibly under David or Solomon’s kingdoms these pieces were penned – and scribal tradition continued them on. I personally do think, from study on the issue also, the Torah did exist (and other writings) since the 10th century BCE. On this topic I do not deviate from the best known sources on the topic.
I also agree with the timeline you provide about the later sources (ie: prophets)…in that the whole of the Tanakh likely existed prior to Jesus ever showing up in Israel.
“I know there are those within certain Christian circles who claim the rabbis changed our texts at a later date to deliberately remove those things that would have proven Jesus was legit, but there is no basis for such an accusation and in fact the Dead Sea Scrolls show it to be false.” (Yael)
(a) I would never make such an accusation concering some rabbinical manipulation of the texts – be assured of that
(b) With that Qumran community (which Geza Vermes is acknowledged scholar – who Ia m reading at this moment) many of the texts for the Tanakh are found (fact). This is obvious proof these texts existed much earlier than the Jesus community.
(c) However, what should be noted within the Qumran community is the lacking of the details of the ‘writings’ part of the Tanakh. Certain books, seem to be used more sparingly than others. Torah was huge, Psalms was huge, even the prophets to the minor prophets got quite a bit of writing in that community. Here is a list complied by Wikipedia from a verifiable source:
Books Ranked According to Number of Manuscripts found (top 16) (Gaster, Theodor H., The Dead Sea Scriptures, Peter Smith Pub Inc.)
Books & No. found
Psalms 39
Deuteronomy 33
1 Enoch 25
Genesis 24
Isaiah 22
Jubilees 21
Exodus 18
Leviticus 17
Numbers 11
Minor Prophets 10
Daniel 8
Jeremiah 6
Ezekiel 6
Job 6
1 & 2 Samuel 4
My point about Jesus not quoting much from those sections of the bible which contain books like Joshua, Kings, Judges, Samuel, Chronicles, etc is pretty accurate for that era it would seem. All 5 Torah books are covered in the extreme, followed by Psalms (and Job), Prophets, Minor Prophets, then those historical pieces.
I was only making a point about the gospels focus on which texts they used. Oddly enough, 1 Enoch is the 3rd highest book on that list and it seems Christianity may have used a lot of this book for some sourcing on it’s writings. At least, that how it seems to look – even early church fathers (including Jude’s letter) reference this piece of work (and very likely Revelations can be attributed to this piece also). For some reason this book seemed to be used by early Christians.
My thing was to extra biblical sources like Talmud and other rabbinic literature not being solidified until 200 BCE to 400 CE. If only to prove not much writing was being written and recorded as we do it today…not to say these pieces did not exist prior – but were not solidified until much later (when it seemd to be of much importance). Which would also explain why the early Christian movement didn’t really start putting anything down until pretty much after 70 CE…when it became of more importance to them also.
“The standard is…perfection. (see the Sermon on the Mount). I don’t see anyone practicing it. No one even comes close.” (Steve)
I have read the sermon on the mount in much depth over my past 17 years in dealing with these scriptures and I can plainly as the sun has rays of light say ‘that idea on perfection is mis-guided in interpretation’.
You see that idea about perfection can be viewed in a few ways – depending on how you read the sermon.
(a) It can be about living a perfect (whole) life. It is setting out an ideal for the believer to shoot for…but the fact anyone thinks it is unreachable is not actually in th sermon on the mount – in fact the opposite is suggested.
Matt 5:19 “Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven”
The suggestion there is to not ‘annul’ a single teaching/commandment…and verse 20 also backs that same point up. If we believe this is Jesus speaking – he seems to be saying ‘you can do it!’.
(b) The idea of perfection appears in chapter 5 at the end “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matt 5:48). From reading the whole chapter in it’s context here is the range of topics:
1. Beatitudes
2. Salt and Light analogies
3. Fulfilling the Prophets – Keeping the Commandments
4. 6 teachings on the commandments and how we can ‘keep’ them
5. This perfection line at the end
This idea of perfection is in culmination to what has already been taught and a standard for the person to live by the reflects godliness. You live these and your not only salt and light – but following the ideas as laid out by the perfect Creator. It’s a summation of the goodness of the texts.
It also can be tied to the last piece in those 6 teachings – which is about how God treats people – concering His love for everyone. God is presented as treating people equally – loving the righteous and the unrighteous the same. God seems to show no favor to those whom He loves…and neither should we. (This piece is likely aimed at the Romans – enemies of the time).
You claim no one keeps that standard of perfection (wholeness) – you think of perfection way out of context I think.
Jason,
Your statement was this: acts he deemed evil as compared with the teachings of the Torah. One example would be selling offerings…putting a price on animals for sacrifice (kind of like selling spirituality in some regards).
You gave the selling of offerings as an example of something Jesus saw as an evil practice that went against the teachings of Torah, not as something that was once allowed but now needed to be changed. Yet Deuteronomy 14:22-26 tells us that if someone lives far from the Temple they are to bring money and buy what they need for an offering once they arrive. The act of buying and selling was not the problem. Now if you want to claim these guys were rip off artists, likely there is some merit to this, but that is a totally different problem.
When you make a claim that something is evil and against Torah you make a serious accusation. I merely asked you to back up your claim from Torah. I knew the passage from Deuteronomy, but I gave you opportunity to point out anything you might have seen as opposing this passage since it’s not unheard of in Torah to find opposing teachings. Since you did not respond with anything from Torah, am I correct to assume you are not able to do so?
Your response changes the scenario a bit. Quote: “Is such a critique on people paying for sacrifice in that turmoil really such a bad critique?”
I would say yes. You are suggesting that people need to be able to abandon their religion in times of turmoil yet isn’t that when people just might need it the most? For myself, I just had a series of financial setbacks, yet it helped a lot to be able to make a contribution to relief agencies in Haiti. Should I have said, wow, I lost so much money it’s too much to expect of me to do as my religion requires and give tzedekah to those in need? No, the very following of what my religion tells me I am to do is what gives my life meaning in spite of these recent losses. If I were to stop following the teachings of my religion because I’m now much poorer, it would be easy to start drifting away from my community and eventually be not only poorer but isolated as well. What good would that do me? I need to stay connected both in good times and bad. Besides, going through hard times together makes them not so hard.
As far as poor people not having money to buy an offering, there were already offerings in place for poor people, grain, small birds. No one was exempt just because they are poor, those who had were to make sure the poor were included but even if they do not, the poor still are to give a small amount of what little they have. In your texts you have the story of the poor widow giving her two small coins. It is important for everyone to know that they have contributed, to tell someone they are too poor to be included makes them feel even poorer. Not a good thing. We all need to see ourselves as people who are valuable, who have much to give rather than only as someone whose sole purpose in life is that of being a taker.
The point that you raise of people not having their own livestock or farms anymore? All the more reason for them to be able to purchase what they need for offerings. Otherwise they are totally excluded from the religious life of the day.
I see no difference between purchasing sacrifices and the teachings in the NT that people were to give what they had to their community. The sacrifices supported a community as well, provided food and monetary support to the priests and levites (per Torah) while providing opportunity of communal celebrations (also per Torah). Read about the sacrifices. They aren’t doom and gloom, but are instead cause for celebration, cause for feasting. And sacrifices actually provided food for the poor since the meat had to to eaten right away. To this day you can see Jewish beggars wandering through Jewish celebrations to receive tzedekah and food to eat.
Anyway, all of this might be interesting, but it is irrelevant to my question so I will stop rambling. My question was simple, when you make a claim about Torah you should be able to back it up. I hold myself to the same standard which is why I study and spend so much time verifying what I’m studying. You blogged with me for a long time; I think you already knew that my favorite question is ‘where in Torah does it say…’
Quote: (a) I would never make such an accusation concerning some rabbinical manipulation of the texts – be assured of that
Yes, I do know this. We blogged together for a long time.
I may well have read incorrectly what you wrote, my apologies for that, however, I don’t think I read your brother incorrectly. I would just ask you then to be absolutely clear when speaking of the the time frame for the canon being compiled as compared to the time that various books might have been written. Because there are those who are only too happy to accuse us of falsifying our texts. I saw that on the Semarians blog and I was so disgusted. And they are going off to preach in churches….
The Dead Sea Scrolls will be featured at our local Science Museum in March so the community is having a series of lectures prior to and during the time it will be here. Should be interesting.
“Yet Deuteronomy 14:22-26 tells us that if someone lives far from the Temple they are to bring money and buy what they need for an offering once they arrive. The act of buying and selling was not the problem. Now if you want to claim these guys were rip off artists, likely there is some merit to this, but that is a totally different problem.” (Yael)
Good point, to be honest I did not know there was allowance for selling of offerings in the Torah (my mistake completely). It does change the way I view that one scripture about Jesus over-turning the money-changers tables.
John 2:16 “and to those who were selling the doves He said, “Take these things away; stop making My Father’s house a place of business.”
I think the point of that episode was that they were making the temple into a business place versus a spiritual experience (ie: a house of prayer)…possibly. Maybe Jesus was not very enthused that a religious symbol like the temple had become something of a marketplace – in his eyes he may have seen some problem with that mixture?
“Since you did not respond with anything from Torah, am I correct to assume you are not able to do so?” (Yael)
Truth is, I wasn’t sure if there was or wasn’t and had not clue where to even start that search. In essence, I wasn’t sure and made a claim that was wrong…will correct that ASAP.
“You are suggesting that people need to be able to abandon their religion in times of turmoil yet isn’t that when people just might need it the most?” (Yael)
I make no such suggestion (in honesty) – my suggestion is being poor may mean you might not be able to give those physical aspects of sacrifice (at certain times). However, isn’t gratefulness, mercy, or even loyalty just as good as any physical offering? And if one is poor and cannot give, we should at least support them and give on their behalf (and walk alongside them in such turmoil). Ans why are they poor in the first place? We need to seek to alleviate those conditions for those in our community as well…I would almost say ‘God can wait’ in some aspect.
“to tell someone they are too poor to be included makes them feel even poorer. Not a good thing. We all need to see ourselves as people who are valuable, who have much to give rather than only as someone whose sole purpose in life is that of being a taker.” (Yael)
It’s not that they need to be told this – but sometimes it is neccesary to ask them to use frugality. Sometimes a person cannot truly give – money anyways – time or other resources maybe. I have actually seen (and been in) situations where the crowd was giving money for a cause (in a church) and the people should not have gave since they did not have enough money for utilities or food…even rent. It’s cases like these where I think money needs to be used first towards one’s household, then to God’s household as one has the resources to do so.
I don’t want to make people feel poorer – God forbid. People need to accept the fact that when they are poor they are still everyone’s equals…and we need to work alongside those people to see them through to successes in life also.
“My question was simple, when you make a claim about Torah you should be able to back it up.” (Yael)
Point is duly noted.
“I don’t think I read your brother incorrectly. I would just ask you then to be absolutely clear when speaking of the the time frame for the canon being compiled as compared to the time that various books might have been written” (Yael)
I took my time looking into that in all honesty because I wanted to represent the best dates available on the texts in Judaism. I didn’t touch the Tanakh because it was pretty obvious – even from gospel accounts – the books existed already.
I cannot speak fot my brother’s claims or where he is learning his information from…he will have to defend his own claims.
“The Dead Sea Scrolls will be featured at our local Science Museum in March so the community is having a series of lectures prior to and during the time it will be here. Should be interesting” (Yael)
These scrolls are becoming more and more of an interesting topic to me as of late.
Jason,
Yes, of course mercy, pursuit of justice, all these kinds of things are presented in Torah as just as important as sacrifice. But, that doesn’t mean sacrifice wasn’t important as well. It wasn’t an either/or situation. Halakhah, Jewish law, speaks of two categories of laws, laws in relation to God (ben adam le-Makom), and laws about relations with other people (ben adam le-chavero), two categories that are to work together in tandem.
A short post I wrote a few years ago: These rules for creating a just society, Mishpatim, (Exodus 21:1 – 24:18) are inserted between the rules for the priests and the rules for the tabernacle, yet this parashah begins with ‘and’ to show there is a real connection. Without justice, religious ritual is meaningless. Instead these must always be connected, just as they have always been connected down through the ages just by one small vav in Torah.
That people abuse teachings so that other people are excluded, and thus God as well, does not always mean the teachings are wrong or bad or evil. Although of course you can make the argument that sometimes they are and that buying and selling of sacrifices if one of those, but as I have pointed out and you concur, the claim cannot be made that this is against Torah.
Interesting your comment about the Temple being a house of prayer, from Isaiah 56:7 “Even them will I bring to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My house of prayer; their burnt-offerings and their sacrifices shall be acceptable upon My altar; for My house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.”
Did you know in Torah there are no prayers to be said over sacrifices, no blessings, no liturgy? In Torah the image is more of a slaughter house than any place for praying! At a later date, obviously, different Psalms began to be recited for each day and even later still some of the prayers we use in shul today began to be recited , but all of this took place in a room off to the side from where the sacrifices were made. I had never noticed this until someone pointed it out to me; thought you might find it interesting as well if you hadn’t already realized this yourself. The development of the idea of liturgy, prayer, the slow and steady movement away from sacrifice, fascinating topic of study.
Back to the conversation…your point about the Temple being a house of prayer, in Isaiah it speaks of a house of prayer for the nations. I once heard a claim that the reason Jesus got upset was that the buying and selling was taking place in the Court of the Gentiles in the Temple, which meant that there was no longer a place for ‘the nations’ to come pray. I don’t suppose there is any proof for this assertion, but it could have some merit.
It is a bit strange the lure of the Temple. During the Babylonian exile there was no offering of sacrifices since there was no Temple and even if it had been still standing, people in Babylon would have had no access. It was during that time the synagogue came into existence with emphasis on Torah and prayer. The Temple became less important in the religious scheme of things, it seems a natural thing for people do downplay that which they cannot observe and emphasis that which they can. Yet the Temple still had pull. When some of the people returned from exile rebuilding work began. Most people didn’t return, however, so they sent money instead both to support the Temple and to allow others to buy offerings for them.
Herod built the last Temple, more a monument to him than anything to do with God I would say…but when it was destroyed in 135 CE it was a cause of great mourning. Most of the people left in the land were very poor, yet the loss of the Temple was something that made them weep. It was important to them. They don’t seem to have seen it as a something that made them go broke or as something from which they were excluded. In reading Torah one can see that part of what was given, was given back to the person giving it for their own use.
History shows the Temple cult as quite corrupt by the time of the Temple’s destruction, yet it still symbolized something important. When the Temple was no longer around, it became custom in synagogue to give the first aliyah to a Cohen, a priest, and the second to a Levi, (aliyah is being called to read the Torah during services, a number of people being called during each Torah reading service). They were still seen as people to be respected and honored. To this day that is tradition, a Cohen first, Levi second and then Israel follows and I’ve never known anyone to be bothered by this. We still mourn the destruction of the Temple on Tisha B’Av each year and many people still go to pray at the Western Wall, even many of us who have no interest in going back to Temple worship with sacrifices still seem to gravitate to this retaining wall of a Temple that is no longer there.
Your comment about being too poor to give. No such teaching in Judaism. All are to give, no matter how poor. We don’t go with the 10% thing, however. If a poor person gives a penny, they have given, and their penny is valued. Yes, if you have more you can give on their behalf, but they still must do their part. It’s important to THEM, not to God. Why would God need our offerings? Sacrifices – a post I wrote a few years ago that you might find interesting.
Your point about feeling pressured to give, yes, that is a touch one. There is no offering plate at shul, thank goodness, tradition is we don’t touch money on Shabbat. We instead pay dues, 2% of our income is suggested, but some pay more, some less, some not at all. Yet, there are pressures in other ways, no place is perfect when it comes to money, that is for sure. I do think, however, we do a good job upholding tradition which is that the highest form of charity is to help someone get to the point where they don’t need any. It’s a never ending scenario, however, in Torah we are told in Deuteronomy 15:4 that there shall be no needy among you, in 15:7 if, however, there is a needy person among you, in 15:11 for there will never cease to be needy ones in your land. We work towards the former, keep our eyes open for the middle, and when we think we’ve done enough remember the later?
I have rambled on too long, I know, but it is great ‘talking’ with you again Jason. I have missed blogging with you. I have enjoyed thinking about the points you bring up, my reaction to them, and the research I’ve done as I’ve written, believe it or not, I have been studying and writing here for the past 2 hours. You are a good source of inspiration. Hope you don’t think I’ve been too hard on you because that was/is not my intention at all. Come visit me sometime. Hey, I’m much more interesting than some of the ones you’ve been talking to of late, even if I do drop out of the blogging world from time to time. 🙂
“It wasn’t an either/or situation. Halakhah, Jewish law, speaks of two categories of laws, laws in relation to God (ben adam le-Makom), and laws about relations with other people (ben adam le-chavero), two categories that are to work together in tandem.” (Yael)
le-chavero (I like that word…sounds cool). I agree, I know that people give as they can – to God and to others – and each action of sacrifice is as equally as important (likely won’t see me disagree there too much). I guess my worry is for the poor – but I think you are right – the more they give – the better they feel and not vice verse (the more help they recieve).
“Did you know in Torah there are no prayers to be said over sacrifices, no blessings, no liturgy? In Torah the image is more of a slaughter house than any place for praying!” (Yael)
It’s kind of strange but that wasn’t how I imagined the temple for some reason – although it is all there (sacrifices and what have you).
“The development of the idea of liturgy, prayer, the slow and steady movement away from sacrifice, fascinating topic of study.” (Yael)
I am kind of fascinated by this type of stuff for some reason – maybe because I like history and seeing changes over time.
“I once heard a claim that the reason Jesus got upset was that the buying and selling was taking place in the Court of the Gentiles in the Temple, which meant that there was no longer a place for ‘the nations’ to come pray” (Yael)
I need to look further into thr surrounding passages in each gospel (only story included in all 4) just to see what was going on there…John seems to point to some business aspect that disrupted Jesus…your point about the gentiles not having a place may make more sense though.
“Yes, if you have more you can give on their behalf, but they still must do their part.” (Yael)
I agree…something about being able to do it yourself that speaks to one’s own dignity and building of self-esteem. Like taking hold of the promises for yourself!
“It’s a never ending scenario, however, in Torah we are told in Deuteronomy 15:4 that there shall be no needy among you, in 15:7 if, however, there is a needy person among you, in 15:11 for there will never cease to be needy ones in your land. We work towards the former, keep our eyes open for the middle, and when we think we’ve done enough remember the later?” (Yael)
It’s these kinds of passages that blogs need to be written on…since it is a really cool teaching from Torah and outlines 3 different levels of poverty – yet we still need to aim for a standard (no poverty)…as unlikely as that is.
“Hope you don’t think I’ve been too hard on you because that was/is not my intention at all. Come visit me sometime. Hey, I’m much more interesting than some of the ones you’ve been talking to of late, even if I do drop out of the blogging world from time to time.” (Yael)
Don’t worry about that – I need a good stiff rebuke now and then…someone to call me into question for some of the things I am saying..before I start to think I have it all figured out (when we all know I am just trying to learn).
I would come and visit – but all my links for you don’t work anymore…where do I find you?
Sorry, didn’t notice that my name linked to a blog I’m not using right now. I updated my profile to go to my current blog. Let’s see if it works.
It works. Just click on my name and you’ll find me now!
I have added the link – to the new inter-faith dialogue…all the rave with the kiddies on the blogosphere these days!
I’m making an effort to do better. You know interfaith has never been my strong point! I’m not at all into the we’re all the same, but I do think it is valuable to find a way to get along while acknowledging we’re not all the same nor do we wish to be.