Gay Awakening in Evangelical Circles?

The Huffington Post (Cathleen Falsani) just reported on Jay Bakker talking about the inclusion of gay people into Evangelical Circles – see this link.

Here are some quotes from the article:

The church has always been late,” Bakker told me in an interview this week. “We were late on slavery. We were late on civil rights. And now we’re late on this.”

Tony Jones, a “theologian-in-residence” at Minnesota’s Solomon’s Porch, one of the pre-eminent “Emergent” churches in the nation, echoes many of Bakker’s arguments. Peggy Campolo, wife of evangelist Tony Campolo, has been saying this kind of thing for years, despite her husband’s disagreement.

And while he stops short of explicitly saying “it’s not a sin” in his 2010 book, A New Kind of Christianity, Brian McLaren, godfather of the Emergent church movement, condemns a Christian preoccupation with homosexual issues as “fundasexuality.”

“We could really use someone like Rob Bell to step forward and say this, too,” Bakker said in the interview, referring to the 40-year-old pastor of the Michigan megachurch Mars Hill and author of bestselling books such as Velvet Elvis and Sex God.

I think I am seeing some movement within Evangelical Associations to move towards the inclusion of gay people, albeit these are mainly ‘outsiders’ (like myself) who hold very little sway with the mass sheeple within the Evangelical unions. But it’s a step forward nonetheless. And I am in full support of it – since gay people are humans like everyone else and should be treated fairly and equitably – isn’t that really the essence of the ‘golden rule’?

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19 thoughts on “Gay Awakening in Evangelical Circles?

  1. Remember that stupid old saying “love the sinner, hate the sin.” This is the exact ideology that fosters the hatred of thy neighbour, rather than to love thy neighbour.

    To paraphrase Zizek, the ‘neighbour’ is most clearly witnessed in someone when they do, or say, something that completely catches you off guard and you see that person in a light that you have never witnessed before (they make a stange comment or perform a stange act that perhaps offends your sensibilities). At this moment that person becomes a ‘neighbour’ to you even if you have known them for years.

    Gayness is the ultimate ‘neighbour’ moment to the Christian church, in this regard. The gay-Christian individual ceases to be a Christian and becomes nothing more than a neighbour when their gayness becomes revealed to their community. They are treated as ‘gay’ (i.e. neighbour) and not a person you love; they have become the living embodiment of ‘sin’. The community hates their ‘sin’ so much that they no longer see that this is the same person whom they once loved. Thus hatred for thy neighbour has become the dominant ethic in many christian communites and not the love for thy neighbour.

  2. what really gets my goat is the statement “The church has always been late,” Bakker told me in an interview this week. “We were late on slavery. We were late on civil rights. And now we’re late on this.” because there have been some denominations where this isn’t anything new. the UCC ordained a openly gay pastor in 1974. and before the the Unitarians were way out in front. so the church means the Evangelical one, which makes sense to me because they are conservative and republican bedfellows who haven’t really led the way on anything in the past two decades save for saving rich people money.

  3. I remember being very impressed with Jay Bakker when I saw a Youtube video of him telling a southern baptist church that he doesn’t think homosexuality is a sin. The church went deathly silent but he stuck to his guns.

    His words are remind me that even when the church is late, it eventually catches up. Even if it’s not in my lifetime, a day will likely come when the LGBT community will be accepted in our society and in churches. That is encouraging. I wonder, though, which group of people will be ostracized instead.

  4. As the father of a gay son, I fully agree.

    Johnny- You stated it very well:

    “Gayness is the ultimate ‘neighbour’ moment to the Christian church, in this regard. The gay-Christian individual ceases to be a Christian and becomes nothing more than a neighbour when their gayness becomes revealed to their community. They are treated as ‘gay’ (i.e. neighbour) and not a person you love; they have become the living embodiment of ‘sin’. The community hates their ‘sin’ so much that they no longer see that this is the same person whom they once loved. Thus hatred for thy neighbour has become the dominant ethic in many christian communites and not the love for thy neighbour.”

    Kudos to you.

  5. I have become very interested in homosexuality as it relates to morality. Does anyone have a good starting point for biblical insights? I am torn on the issue because I know what the bible has to say on the subject, but regrettably, it’s not very much. Any help?

  6. It’s an interesting subject and it’s hard to know where to start. However, a scan of the NT reveals there isn’t much on the subject, in fact Jesus is never quoted as dealing with the issue. However I usually examine the 2 becomes 1 passage and how this can allow for many relationships within the crux of the idea.

  7. homosexuality is NOT in the bible. plain as that. there are 6 or so “clobber passages” that people use, but when you look at them closely, they fall apart without putting too much stress on ’em.

  8. I know what you guys mean. There’s really no good direction in the biblical text for this idea. Gender roles tie in a little bit, but hardly at all. Is it possible that since the Israelites were kept apart from other cultures, at times literally slaughtering them, they did not adopt homosexuality since it is often associated with pagan worship? If so, that would be a solid explanation for why the bible is basically silent on the issue. And what does that imply for a right and wrong type of moral?

  9. Wow! I’m proud and glad to have left this ‘cultural religion’ called Christianity. You guys have no conviction, no backbone, no true faith. Christians are a bunch of whishy-washy people who hold on to NONE of the principles in the book you claim come from God. Your book is clear on homosexuality! It’s one thing to respect the legal rights of homosexuals, it’s completely different thing to make it OK/moral to be homosexual and Christian. Homosexuals are human, and so are pedophiles, and rapists. Even the Jews have more backbone than you guys. No other religious group is more malleable than the Christians!!! This does make sense considering that most Christians have NOT read their ‘holy’ bible from cover to cover. Amazing! Isn’t their a passage in the bible from the lord of the Christian that goes like this: “It is not those who SAY “Oh Lord! Lord!” who shall enter paradise BUT those who DO the will of thy Father that’s in Heaven.” Christianity is a religion of falsehood, and Christian are definitely the most religiously phony people out there. The Jews hold on to their beliefs. The Muslims definitely stick to their guns. Even the Buddhist stand by their traditions. Christians! No, they have no conviction, nor tradition! You change what your Creator made into law in a book you ‘proudly’ claim is from your Creator, which you have NEVER read entirely!!! Bunch of spineless people! I’ve seen pity with more backbone. More like worms than mollusks.

    Next thing you know, rapist, transsexuals, and transvestites will be accepted in the church and preaching on the pulpit. Better yet, a preacher who openly calls to bestiality instead of human marriage might be the next ‘trend.’

    I was born into this stupid religion! I’m proud to have dumped it like a bad habit! Thank God!

  10. Some passages for thought for the spineless people who have NEVER read their ‘holy’ bible:

    Genesis 2:24-25 says, “Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.”

    Hebrew 13:4 says, “Marriage is honorable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.”

    Gen 19:5-8 “and they called to Lot and said to him, ‘Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them.’ But Lot went out to them at the doorway, and shut the door behind him, and said, ‘Please, my brothers, do not act WICKEDLY.'”

    Leviticus 18:22, “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.”

    Leviticus 20:13, “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.”

    Deuteronomy 23:17, “There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.”

    1 Kings 14:24, “And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.”

    Romans 1:26-32, “For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11, “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor EFFEMINATE, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.”

    Jude 7, “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”

    Christianity: Religion of falsehood concocted by phonies!

  11. “Wow! I’m proud and glad to have left this ‘cultural religion’ called Christianity” (Love)

    Sorry, read both your comments – your still following a very cultured version of Christianity as well, just that yours allows bigotry and hatred masked as ‘loving’. Maybe you should study church history just to see how cultured your viewpoint and what is hearkens back to.

    “It is not those who SAY “Oh Lord! Lord!” who shall enter paradise BUT those who DO the will of thy Father that’s in Heaven.”” (Love)

    Really. Is it the will of God Almighty to hate people and discard them as useless? Is it the will of Almighty God to punish someone for being born with a gender crisis? Is it the will of the Almighty God that we step over these people’s rights and not care about their concerns? Is it the will of the Almighty God that we consider gays as less than equals? if so, there is nothing almighty about any of that.

    “Next thing you know, rapist, transsexuals, and transvestites will be accepted in the church and preaching on the pulpit” (Love)

    Uhm, confusing terms much are we? How is it in your mind you can even compare being gay with being a rapist? How are those 2 things even closely related? Guilty by association, the Christian companion for condemnation.

    Also stay on point – your taking pieces from one cloth and adding it to another until the clothing is not even recognizable.

  12. Love, you also found 9 passages (total) from the whole bible, and only a few of those relate to the topic at hand, which is probably like 0.01% of the bible’s content (if not less)…so how big of an issue is this really? God forbid you would actually think comparatively.

    Also, you need to realize that culturally and historically the idea of being gay is misunderstood in the bible – fact. Homosexuality as a word was not even used until the late 1800’s – prior to that it never existed – so how it’s being used in the bible is quite beyond me. Also, if you analyze a few of those passages the reason you would relate something like rape with being gay is clear, because Paul and other make huge lists that bunch a lot of things together – including the term they use for homosexuality…showing also some lack of understanding of the gender question.

    Lets analyze a few of those passages:

    Genesis 2:24-25 says nothing about the forbiddance of gay marriage. It is ideal marriage is between a man a woman, true. However, also marriage is supposed to produce children (2 become 1 idea)…yet not all marriage can actually do that (ie: infertility). Should those marriages also be banned?

    Genesis 19 – Lot. Funny thing about that story that no one brings up – Lot offered his daughters to the people of the town – to do whatever they wanted with them. This not only means ‘rape’ but also the demeaning of women…if we want to be literalists. Also the passage says nothing about being gay per se, except the town wanted to demean these new people (ie: angels) since they did not belong there. In fact, later stories in Judaism (and in the NT) have the crime of Sodom and Gommorah being ‘greed’, not homosexuality.

    Romans 1 doesn’t show much except Paul’s understanding of Roman culture of the day…which included orgies to gods which he likely was having none of. Makes sense.

    1 Cor 6 doesn’t say a lick about being gay, they use the word ‘effeminate’. Doesn’t really say much to be honest.

    Jude 7 mentions the problem with Sodom – ‘going after strange flesh’ – angels. Check the story and see if I am wrong.

    Regardless, I admit the bible has all these things in them that seem to condemn being gay or LGBTQ. Yes it is there, but this is the 21st century and we are finding people are being born ‘gay’. Should we just condemn them for that birth?

  13. @societyVS:

    You said:
    Love, you also found 9 passages (total) from the whole bible, and only a few of those relate to the topic at hand, which is probably like 0.01% of the bible’s content (if not less)…so how big of an issue is this really?

    I say:
    1. Typical Christian mentality and reasoning. Trying to quantify the number of times the bible forbids homosexuality doesn’t take away from the fact that it forbids it! That’s the point, not your ‘0.01%’ that you pulled out of thin air. There are more passage in the bible than the ones I have mentioned. Just google ‘bible against homosexuality’ and you’ll find tons of them. Even if it occurred only once in your so-called ‘holy’ book, that single occurrence should be more than sufficient for a true believer in God’s Word to take heed and obey. How big of an issue is it? Big enough to be mentioned in your ‘holy’ book. Had you truly believed that your bible is the ‘Word of God’ you would surely not have questioned the importance of its commandments.

    2. The passages I’ve mentioned are very clear. I don’t expect you to accept them as they are. Instead, you have proven my expectations of most Christians to be true by attempting to interpret the passages according to your understanding, as opposed to what it unequivocally says.

    —————————————————–

    You said:
    Lets analyze a few of those passages: …

    I say:
    . All the things you mentioned after that are but opinions, not proof or evidence for what you claim. Like I said, the passages are quite clear. One thing though, to claim that the sins of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah had nothing to do with ‘sodomy’ is just laughable. The word ‘sodomy’ itself, meaning “anal intercourse, anal sex”, COMES from the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. It makes no sense to even try to argue that point.

    ——————————————————–

    You said:
    Regardless, I admit the bible has all these things in them that seem to condemn being gay or LGBTQ. Yes it is there, but this is the 21st century and we are finding people are being born ‘gay’. Should we just condemn them for that birth?

    I say:
    1. So you DO admit that the bible ‘seems’ to condemn homosexuality, BUT we are living in the 21st century, huh? I guess all Christians should immediately renounce and throw away their bibles since it’s not applicable to modern life. Or, in the least, Christians should call the bible the ‘Old Bible’ and formulate a ’21st century bible’ which agrees with their whims and desires. Why not pick and choose which passages to apply to the 21st century and which ones to reject? Oh, forgot … that’s exactly what Christians do anyway. Never mind.

    2. All the efforts you put forth in trying to argue against the obvious boil down to one thing, which is common to most Christian: Deep down, you know that the bible is in great part man-made, which it is. Moreover, you really don’t care about what God says, wants, or loves, you really want to do what ‘makes you happy.’

    Ultimately, I don’t believe in the bible, nor do I believe in Christianity. I believe in God as the Creator, and Jesus as a person (human, not divine) who walked this earth, taught God’s Words and Wisdom, called others to worshiping God not himself, ate, drank, urinated, and defecated like the rest of us mortals. I just think that Christianity is a joke and so are Christians who profess it as being true or as being their ‘faith’; you are but fooling yourselves for it’s crystal CLEAR that you really do NOT believe or have ‘faith’ in it.

    ——————————————————-

    Best for last!

    You said:
    Really. Is it the will of God Almighty to hate people and discard them as useless? Is it the will of Almighty God to punish someone for being born with a gender crisis? Is it the will of the Almighty God that we step over these people’s rights and not care about their concerns? Is it the will of the Almighty God that we consider gays as less than equals? if so, there is nothing almighty about any of that.

    I say:
    1. Only fools believe that homosexuals are born that way. Let us put religion to the side. Pure logic. If homosexuality is an innate trait, then a person shouldn’t be able to ‘become’ or ‘choose’ to become gay, no more than a man can truly become a woman, i.e. w/o surgery or taking hormones. What is the reality? The reality is that there are many men who used to be gay and then started to like women, became straight and had children. There are tons of straight people who, when they enter prison, become gay due to the absence of women and their desire for sex. Also, what about bisexuals, are they ‘born’ that way too? They can swing both ways, how come? They are not gay even though they can CHOOSE to be with a person of the same sex? They SHOULDN’T be able to ‘choose’ their sexual orientation, if indeed homosexuality was purely inherent.

    2. Let’s take a more potent point of logic. If indeed homosexuality is a product of natural evolution, i.e. people are born that way, then this would mean that there would exist a possibility of all people being born straight, one of some people being born gay and some straight, and another possibility of all people being born gay. The first and second possibilities allow for the subsistence of the human species ONLY through natural heterosexual conception. The last possibility, i.e. if we all evolved to be ‘naturally’ born gay, then men would be with men and women with women. The human species would inevitably cease to exist by the mere absence of procreation. Homosexuality is clearly counter-productive and goes CLEARLY against the very survival of the human species. The only way that homosexuals would be able to survive would be to engage in heterosexual activity with someone of the opposite sex, i.e. someone OTHER THAN their homosexual partner. Even w/ artificial insemination, you still need the opposite gender to procreate. There is no way around it. In other words, heterosexuality sustains human life on earth, whereas homosexuality threatens it. Also, homosexuality cannot even exist WITHOUT heterosexuality to give bring it into existence. Thus, from a purely evolutionary point-of-view, homosexuality is not a viable sexual orientation for the preservation of the human species.

  14. “Just google ‘bible against homosexuality’ and you’ll find tons of them.” (Love)

    Laughable. Is this how you search the bible for it’s content? By someone else’s pre-conceived notions?

    “Had you truly believed that your bible is the ‘Word of God’ you would surely not have questioned the importance of its commandments.” (Love)

    Just what are the commandments? Oh right, Jesus summed them up in like one line ‘love others as you yourself want to be loved’ (mixing the ‘do unto others’ and ‘love your neighbor’ ideas Jesus teaches as the core of the commandments). This would include gay people BTW.

    “The word ‘sodomy’ itself, meaning “anal intercourse, anal sex”, COMES from the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. It makes no sense to even try to argue that point.” (Love)

    Sure it does, it’s called linguistics and history. Sodomy is an ‘invented’ word to describe anal intercourse, based on the Sodom story. However, just because someone invented the word doesn’t make it accurate. Sodomy as a word does not actually appear in the bible either…so it’s use is totally in question concerning it’s validity. I also see how that word was used based on a story that Jewish people did not interpret as ‘anal sex’ but ‘sex with angels’…see Jude for more on that.

    “Moreover, you really don’t care about what God says, wants, or loves, you really want to do what ‘makes you happy.’” (Love)

    Assumptive. Not true at all. Fact is I am happy and happy with the life I am living. As for your point about homosexuality, will my life become happier if I dislike gay people more? Answer that.

    “They are not gay even though they can CHOOSE to be with a person of the same sex? They SHOULDN’T be able to ‘choose’ their sexual orientation, if indeed homosexuality was purely inherent.” (Love)

    Total BS. We’re human beings with ‘choice’ – it’s just part of our physical and chemical make-up. Realistically, we could choose as straight people to do whatever we want with our bodies – including sexual acts people might find questionable. Just because were straight it does not automatically impose limits on what we can ‘choose’ to do.

    The same goes for gay people. They can choose to love someone that is straight, they do all the time…but does this mean they are not ‘gay’? Fact is, most cases of where gay people try to have the straight life it does not work out. They are just born with different inclinations and that’s about all it can amount to.

    Let’s be realistic for a second here, which requires you to think about what I am going to write. Would you choose to be ostracized by your family, school, and friends? Would you choose to be disliked by many institutions (including churches) and hated by some for something you just are? Would you choose to have a self condemning atmosphere at all times because society cannot accept you? Would you choose to have your rights limited by society? If the answer is ‘no’, then treat others like that as well.

  15. All the arguments that you presented are feeble. I shall not address them again. I would like to answer these questions though:

    You said:
    Let’s be realistic for a second here, which requires you to think about what I am going to write. Would you choose to be ostracized by your family, school, and friends? Would you choose to be disliked by many institutions (including churches) and hated by some for something you just are? Would you choose to have a self condemning atmosphere at all times because society cannot accept you? Would you choose to have your rights limited by society? If the answer is ‘no’, then treat others like that as well.

    I say:
    Indeed, let’s us BE realistic. Let us ask a few rhetorical questions: Why do some lung doctors cigarettes knowing its consequences? Why do people have unprotected sex knowing the risks involved? Why do people (like Ryan Dunn) get drunk then go speeding down the road putting their lives and that of others at risk? Why would someone ever do any kind of drug after seeing and reading of thousands of people dying from drugs? Why?

    1. Some people elect to use their intellect to do stupid and counterproductive things.
    2. Because their pride, desires (their whims) are stronger than their self-control, morals, and, ultimately, because of ignorance. Ignorance is the root of all evil.
    3. Because they were raised by ‘enablers’ that fostered and set the stage for their homosexual behavior to flourish.

    Realistically, homosexuality is actually detrimental to homosexuals themselves!

    – Between 2001 and 2006, male-to-male sex was the largest HIV transmission category in the US, and the only one associated with an increasing number of HIV/AIDS diagnoses, according to a report from Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
    The increase was highest among boys and men between the ages of 13 and 24 years who had sex with other males, particularly among ethnic minorities.

    SOURCE: Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, June 27, 2008.

    – The Centers for Disease Control (CDC) reports that 72% of male AIDS cases spring from homosexual activity.

    The risk of homosexual activity in the contraction of AIDS has become so difficult to ignore that even Matt Foreman, the former Executive Director of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, admitted a few months ago that AIDS is primarily a “gay disease”:
    “Internally, when these numbers come out, the ‘established’ gay community seems to have a collective shrug as if this isn’t our problem. Folks, with 70 percent of the people in this country living with HIV being gay or bi, we cannot deny that HIV is a gay disease. We have to own that and face up to that.”

    – The life expectancy for gay and bisexual men is 20 years less than average;
    – GLBs have smoking rates ranging from 1.3 to three times higher than average;
    – GLBs become alcoholics at a rate 1.4 to seven times higher than the general population;
    – GLBs use illicit drugs at a rate from 1.6 to 19 times higher than average
    – Homosexual men comprise 76% of AIDS cases and 45% of all new HIV infections;
    – GLB populations are at a higher risk of lung and liver cancer;
    – Homosexual and bisexual men suffer a higher rate of ANAL cancer than heterosexual men;
    – Lesbians report a higher rate of breast cancer;
    Source: Health Canada

    The fragility of the anus and rectum, along with the immunosuppressive effect of ejaculate, make anal-genital intercourse a most efficient manner of transmitting HIV and other infections. The list of DISEASES found with extraordinary frequency among male homosexual practitioners as a result of anal intercourse is alarming:

    Anal Cancer
    Chlamydia trachomatis
    Cryptosporidium
    Giardia lamblia
    Herpes simplex virus
    Human immunodeficiency virus
    Human papilloma virus
    Isospora belli
    Microsporidia
    Gonorrhea
    Viral hepatitis types B & C
    Syphilis25

    The Canadian Rainbow Health Coalition has admitted that homosexuality carries heavy and serious health risks. In a complaint filled against the Canadian government, the GLB group has acknowledged as the basis for their lawsuit that homosexuality poses great risks to healh: http://www.xtra.ca/BinaryContent/pdf/human%20rights%20complaint.pdf

    Thus, realistically, people who claim to care for gays really don’t care about them, no more than an enabler who supports the drug habits of an addict by giving them steady stream of income. Those who care, are those who seek the truth, and uphold it all the way, regardless of whether their views are not ‘cool’ or ‘popular’.

    The facts are there, undeniable, and stacked against homosexuality. I leave you with this quote:

    It is better to be stand alone in truth, than to be wrong with a multitude.

  16. Interesting statistics Love, to prove gay ‘sex’ may be problematic. However, gonorrhea is a straight disease (new strains found today) – should that stop straight people from having sex too? Or what about chlamydia? Hmmm, maybe any sexual disease should stop straight people from having sex, because apparently the penis and vagina can transmit disease from one of us to another one of us.

    All the stats prove is sexual disease can exist between gay men or women; just like how sexual diseases can happen and be passed by straight people.

    As for the stats on alcoholism and drug use, isn’t it quite obvious why this occurs? Nothing psychologically rings a bell to you?

    Also, read the paper provided – which is actually about care for the glbt community in Canada receiving adequate health care. Thanks for that.

    I think your using the stats all wrong by the way.

    For example, I read Canadian statistics on Aboriginal and First Nations communities all the time concerning health issues, poverty, housing, crime, and mortality rates. Yet, if I were to use these statistics for some intended end, one could make some pretty racist projections and points…all b*llshit mind you but they could pretend to be making a meaningful point. This is exactly what you are doing with this paper…using it for a purpose unintended by the writer and even the statistical gatherers.

  17. The facts are facts regardless of the interpretation given to them. It’s like 2+2 = 4, it doesn’t matter what you use it for, 2+2 will still equal 4. That’s the bottom line.

    You said:
    However, gonorrhea is a straight disease (new strains found today) – should that stop straight people from having sex too? Or what about chlamydia?

    I say:
    This argument is flawed. The STDs mentioned are strongly associated with promiscuity in heterosexual relationships. They do not correlate with committed heterosexual marital relationships. On the other hand, Anal Cancer, Chlamydia trachomatis, Cryptosporidium, Giardia lamblia, Herpes simplex virus, etc., correlated with homosexuality as a whole. In other words these STDs correlate with anal sex, whether it occurs in a committed homosexual relationship or a promiscuous one. This means that homosexuality is per se detrimental to their health whether the relationship is marital or casual.

    The reality is that you are a people without conviction. People like you are no better than those from the masses of Germany who were brainwashed into the believing in a ‘master race’ and that they are to rule the world. You can be made to believe anything, as long as it’s popular among the masses. There is NO WAY that Jesus would have supported such filth! Only a fool who hasn’t ready the bible would believe that.

    I know that your whims and desires will prompt you to argue against any proof I bring. So, to you is your way, to me is mine.

  18. Love, please don’t assume we haven’t read our bible. Like you I have some issues with christianity but I also have faith in god. I am workimg to reconcile these insteaded of just dumping religion all together.
    Stds and stis are a result of promiscuity. Homosexuality is often interconected with hyper sexuality. This evident in the numbers you mention as well as the texts you mentioned last week. Also homosexuality as well as prostitution and tattoos were exclusive to pagan worship in ancient middle east. Perhaps a monogonous relationship homosexual or not is nopt the same thing as sodomy. I’m tryimg to figure that out. Is the bible definitive of the culture or or is it defined by the culture? Love, be more loving please, even to your enwmiws whom I am not.

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