“Hi societyvs, Thanks for the comeback.” (twom)
Finally, a debate that promises to stretch the mind out a bit – thanks for this twom.
“Despite the word homosexuality being a recent addition, the early wording in the Bible is perfectly clear…No homosexual acts are allowed, on pain of death.” (Twom)
The wording is ‘perfectly clear’…whoa whoa horses…according to who? Who is making the call ‘the wording is perfectly clear’? Catholics? Mormons? Christians? Jews? Muslims? Who exactly? Within all strands of these faiths (minus the Mormons – they have their polygamy) the acceptance of homosexuality is gaining momentum. If the wording was ‘perfectly clear’ – how can 4 major faiths be wrestling with an issue where the wording leaves no questions? I find it strange to think the wording is that clear.
One organization worth checking out for the counter arguments for the ‘homosexuality’ term is Soulforce: http://www.soulforce.org/
“Talk to some evangelical fundamentalists today and you can just feel the vibe…kill the homo’s, or at the very least send them back into the closet.” (Twom)
Key being here ‘some’. But I don’t disagree – I think the general mindset in most Christian organizations is that being homosexual is a ‘sin’ – and they use Leviticus and Romans 1 to back up their claims usually (and the passages in letters where ‘homosexual’ is used).
But the fact remains – violent action against gays is not pursued in Christian communities nor Jewish one’s – Muslims can answer for themselves on this one. The lone exceptions are ‘freaks on a leash’ like Fred Phelps and Westboro Baptist – and they are the rare exception (percentage wise). But I have to admit in most Christian communities the acceptance of homosexuality is few and far between…but it is changing.
“Seems that lots of Hebrews were killing lots of Amorites, Sodomites, Gomorran’s and other tribes that God was pissed off at for adultery, pedophilia, masturbation, homosexuality, bestiality, rape, and other sex “crimes”. Or have people misinterpreted the stories they have told me?” (Twom)
The stories – depending on which one’s – sound like they have been misinterpreted if you ask me. Since we are dealing with the gay issue here – which one of those stories actually uses this as a reason for pre-cursor for the action of violence? None of them – not even Sodom and Gomorrah…so yeah I would say there was some dis-information passed your way.
I always refuse to answer question like this if they are not specific in the story being detailed because then it’s a bunch of general statements with little proofs to them. However, my personal suggestion for the Tanakh (OT) passages you have brought up – seek rabbinical literature on the topics and you will find they are quite diverse on reasons for the wars. Plus, I don’t think Christians really do a good job of explaining Jewish literature like the Tanakh – under-qualified if you ask me – rabbi’s spend their whole life on these texts and the Hebrew behind them…I think their explanation will be of much better use.
“What was their stance/thoughts on killing Jesus? I think I said barely removed from caves. Remember Adam and Eve were cave dwellers” (Twom)
(a) The Jewish people did not kill Jesus – the Romans did (fact)…only they had the authority to execute anyone in that Jewish territory…being that there was no independent Jewish gov’t at this time (even Herod was ruled by Romans). For example, in one story they have Jesus before Pilate (Roman Govenor) for the process of execution – so no – a Jewish court did not execute Jesus.
(b) It’s a logical fallacy to think the people of 0-100 AD were worse than us – heck let’s go back to some mythical Adam and Eve figure even – how can you logically say they were worse than us (less enlightened)? Do you fail to realize in the 1900’s (a good 150 years after industrialization and in modern times) we saw the worst world wars ever (most people on this planet to ever die in just one of those wars – WW2)? Top that off, a few genocides and ethic cleansing ordeals in a variety of countries and one need not make anymore comparisons about enlightenment.
I think it is quite the fallacy to think we are much more smarter than any of those generations of people just because they fought some localized wars, lived in moderate housing, or did not have the science we have today. One can argue, and maybe this is prophetic, the more knowledge humanity has been able to amass and build upon has put them closer to the brink of serious, irreparable damage (including environment and the use of nuclear weaponry). Maybe the 21st century – which should be the brightest generation ever – will be the stupidest one of them all?
“Hey…I didn’t write the stuff…I personally think that plain old men…you know, sheep/goat herders/ scribes/ rabbi’s wrote it.:-) It obviously is not of divine origin.” (Twom)
I am not arguing ‘who wrote it’ though – but what the content written meant. There is not extra biblical writings concerning the death of gay people anywhere in antiquity – no purging and no cleansing. So even with the Leviticus passages – nothing still happened to gay people within Judaism – including being tried for death on such ideas. So just maybe the passage isn’t concerning gay people? This is a distinct possibility.
As for the bible being primtive or archaic – that also needs to be seriously re-thought. The book starts off with a whole story about the ills of slavery – some 2700 years prior to its expansion into the America’s from Britain. They used the process of quarantining people with diseases they considered untreatable – something we still do today with diseases we don’t want to spread. Intorduced the real first type of fully kept legal system along with constitutional rights for the people – which we all know has been borrowed off for eons now.
These people did not have the science and knowledge we have at our fingertips in this current age – but they were a very functional society – in fact so functional they are the oldest surviving recorded in depth culture on this planet…Jewish
***Comment taken from Deacon Blue’s ‘Forbidden Fruit’
dude.. if we worshipped the scriptures, we’d be right in hating homosexuals. instead, we worship a living, moving and unpredictable God who says that all people are children of God.
stand strong, support our LGBTQ brothers and sisters, and love.
i love this quote “Remember Adam and Eve were cave dwellers” from a (from my reading) fundie. i don’t remember reading that in the bible, where is that? chapter and verse please.
is it a fallacy to think ppl were worse than us back in the day? depends on what you think is happening in history. name a time you’d like to go back to. then think of what you’d have to give up.. air conditioning, inet, email, civil rights advancements, feminist movement, post-modernism, medical break throughs… there are some bad things that happened, colonialism, racism, wars, and what not.. but i see history as an upswing rather than a down swing… sure we’re facing global warming, but those are unintended and uncorrected symptoms of progress. our next step is to correct those problems.. which will result in more problems. such is the existence of our limited species.
Dr Michael Brown is a messianic so you know what that means. I guess now they’ve taken to spamming blogs with their crap.
True Yael – he’s been deleted
Wouldn’t it be nice if the spammers would at least pretend to join the conversation before putting up their links?
True – lol